$200+ rods - food for thought [Archive]

steve(IL)

01-09-2001, 08:53 PM

I work for a manufacturer of industrial equipment. One thing I have learned is that - regardless of the industry - there are a finite number of raw material suppliers out there. Everyone in our business has to shop from the same suppliers.

In the case of rod builders, there are a finite number of graphite suppliers, guide suppliers, handle suppliers, etc.

One area of differentiation is in the construction of the blank. Again, there are a finite number of builders here and much of the science is well understood by more than one manufacturer.

Think of what happened in the calculator and computer market - faster, better, smaller, cheaper.

The same thing is happening in rods and I couldn't be happier. It's like an arms race. Materials continue to get better, construction techniques continue to improve and we as fisherman get to benefit.

Don't think you're missing out just because your conscience won't let you spend $200 to $300 on a rod. The sub $150 and sub $100 rod builders narrow the performance gap every year. It's the American way (Assembled in China or Korea probably - preferably Wisconsin or Washington).

Lighter, more sensitive, more affordable. Count on it. Insist on it. :-)

Craig

01-10-2001, 04:50 AM

Your right that manufacturers are narrowing the gap every year. However, yesterday you said you owned a GL3. No mention of any IMX or GLX. That being said, I hardly would consider your opinion as reliable. I am not trying to be difficult, but if you do not own any $200 rods, how can you possibly speak of their quality or value?

steve(IL)

01-10-2001, 06:49 AM

I bought an IMX and used it side by side for a few days with some of my other rods. Was it better, lighter or more sensitive? Yes, but only slightly so. Did I enjoy fishing with it? Of course. Since it was 2-3 times more expensive than my sub $100 rods(which include some $100+ rods bought on sale), was it 2-3 times better or 2-3 times more sensitive? No way. Did I suddenly start catching more fish with it over what I had been using? No. The rod got returned(I did feel a bit guilty about the demo).

Call me unreliable if you like.... I'm just a guy who tries to squeeze $1.10 worth of fun out of every $1.00 :-)

For the record, I am just a regular guy who pays for my stuff with after tax dollars. I have no affiliations - only firsthand experience.

Sunshine

01-10-2001, 07:50 AM

Thanks for your insights. I'm not just saying that because I happen to agree with yoy.

Fin Addict

01-10-2001, 09:02 AM

I would disagree w/ your statement. In my opinion an IMX is twice as good as a GL3 and I will definitely catch more fish with the IMX. These differences are most apparent in jigging and rigging applications. For casting or trolling rod choice makes far less difference but for jigging, give me an IMX in one hand and a GL3 in the other and I WILL catch more, a lot more, on the IMX.

I have never understood why many spend major $ on boat, motor, trailer, towing vehicle etc. and then cheap out on the things that actually catch the fish - rods, reels,lines, termial tackle etc. My time on the water is less than what I would like and as such when I am out there I want every advantage possible.

Hawgeye

01-10-2001, 09:59 AM

I own two IMX G-Loomis rods and I also own two much less expensive Scheels outfitter rods that I would say compare very close. I am not sure off hand what model they are. I agree that with some good shopping and comparing, one can find a better value for the dollar. Just like anything I buy, if I can afford the best, I buy the best. G-Loomis is a great rod manufacturer;however, I don't feel using a G-Loomis compared to another quality manufacturer, you will catch more fish. It all boils down to what you practice with the most. Watch pro golf, every now and then you will see a pro using a $30 putter!

crash

01-10-2001, 12:40 PM

Hhhrrrffpp...Ain't seen a rod or reel do the catching part yet...

I surf fish alot and it seems to me those guys with the $800 dollar reels and $400 rods stand around their cars admiring their "rods" much more then the actual fish'n they do. Best part is when they get online and complain about how the drag froze with an ity-bity fish on, or the reel seat let go.

"Sure is a purty reel you got there hank"

"yup, aint been cast once"

But what works for you, works for you...more of a confidence thing I guess.

Go Ugly

Scott

01-10-2001, 02:43 PM

I own some GL3 rods. I've fished with GLX. There is a lot of differnce if you ask me. Does it mean more fish? I don't know. The jump I made to the GL 3 made a big difference to me on "light bite" days. By the way, mine have been used, as has my 22 foot boat, it's trailer and the rig that tows it. I'd hardly fork over that dough if I wasn't going to use it....and use it a lot.

bouncer boy

01-10-2001, 04:41 PM

All you yuppies from the cities are the same. You think need a 200-300 dollar rod to catch a walleye? You have got to be kidding me. I cant believe you guys actually pay that much for a rod. I have caught many a walleye and never once thought that if I had a $300.00 rod I might have caught more. The only reason loomis gets that kind of money is because you guys keep forking it over. Get a life boys.

Bob G2

01-10-2001, 05:04 PM

I have been watching this discussion for a while. It seems to boil down to this-->VALUE

VALUE= Effectiveness + Satisfaction / Cost

Since only cost is the only factor that can be unarguably quantifiable, the rest is rather qualitative. I say this because, in my limited and humble experience, that, given fishermen of essentially the same skill level and everything else being equal, it is not always the fisherman with the most expensive, sensitive rod that catches all or most of the fish.

Someone in another post mentioned that fisherman adapt their sensitivity skill to the rods they use most often.

I don't think anyone would argue too much that the Loomis GLX is perhaps the lightest, most sensitive rod out there (although not too many people here I don't think have tried Sage). However, how much better....is a very qualitative issue.

Satisfaction is another issue. While the sensitivity and lightness are also integers of this equation, some individuals also would consider durability. May be of little issue to someone who has 6 like rods in the boat for backup, it may be of larger concern for someone who has hiked in 2 miles from a car, or who has paddled and portaged in 30 miles.

Personally, IMHO I tend to side with Steve. I have made and fish with some rather expensive and hi tech rods. Are they lighter and more sensitive? Yes. Are they 2x/3x's as sensitive and light
(actually weight is also quantifiable) compared to, let's say a
48mil mod rod vs. a 38 mil mod rod? That, is going to be a personal opinion. Do I worry about durability? You bet! Even with the most iron clad warranty, you still have to ship them out and wait for a replacement (and build it out if you made it).
Can I say that,unequivocally, I will catch more fish when I use
my best rods over my less expensive, "less tech" rods? Hmmmmm.

Viva la Difference. What is of value to you?

WAeyes

01-10-2001, 05:15 PM

I dont think most people buy them because they need them. They buy them because they can afford them and they feel more confident fishing with them. Do you feel that people who can afford a Cadillac should not drive one because they dont need one to get from point A to point B? By the way, I dont own one, I dont need one, I certainly cant afford one, but I want one and probably will buy one because I love fishing that much and will do almost anything to enjoy it a little more.

Don

01-10-2001, 05:20 PM

I believe the Scheels outfitter is a Loomis blank.

aurora

01-10-2001, 05:28 PM

this gets off this particular discussion a bit, but what rods are you talking about from Sage? I know they have spinning rods but they are all three piece travel rods ( that's all i see on their web site anyway). I'd be interested in getting one or building one. thanks

dummie

01-10-2001, 06:19 PM

As for me I like Ugly sticks. Everyone is entitled to their opinons. Good fishing, God bless.

Weyes1

01-10-2001, 08:39 PM

What it really boils down to is confidence. Do you feel more with a sensitive rod or a cheap rod? Take a $30 fishing rod versus a $120 - $300 set up the same way (line, lure, reel) fish with each one and switch off and on for an entire day. The fishing rod that you feel the most with will be the rod you feel more confident with. Although the more expensive rod may or may not catch more fish, it will definately tell you more about what and where you are fishing. I started fishing with budget rods and slowly moved up to the high end rods. But don't let it end there either. Don't buy a $200 and put a $29.95 reel on it, that's kind of defeating the purpose of the outfit. You buy a quality fishing rod, buy a quality reel and spool it with high quality line.
Just my views on this.
Weyes1
Kevin Clark

stewart

01-10-2001, 08:40 PM

The higher up the scale you go the smaller the increments in sensitivity are going to be. In general there is going to be a bigger difference between a 30$ dollar rod and 60$ rod than between a 150$ and 300$ one.It would probably make a neat graph.

If your frugal I guess it just a matter of determining where the rapid increase in sensitvity levels off.

Weyes1

01-10-2001, 08:40 PM

IaCraig

01-10-2001, 10:37 PM

Why argue??? Everyone use what you like, but don't be afraid to experiment. I thought had a good setup, but after trying Berkley whiplash line last year I learned the sensitivity could be improved upon quite a bit. This year I am going to buy an IMX rod to see if it helps a little bit more. Sensitivity is becoming an adiction with me, and if a hight dollar rod helps I will probably own one eventually. (I'm trying an IMX this spring)

What do I and my buddies use most? My walleye fishing buddy uses an old berkley cherrywood rod as his #1 weapon and his success is hard to argue with. My dad uses an antique Shakespear casting WonderRod and does very well.(he almost lives in a fishing boat) Personally my favorite was a Cabela's IM6 rod, but my wife broke the tip this winter. (She was trying to surprise me by cleaning my boat, boy she surprized me!)

I measure how good a fisherman is by how much fun they have and how much fun they are to fish with. Its not just how many fish you catch. If you use a Zebco 33 Combo and can laugh and enjoy yourself, your more welcome in my boat than the person with big dollar stuff who whines and moans all day.

Having fun is what it is all about.

IaCraig

Lippy

01-11-2001, 05:25 AM

Assuming that everyone who owns a Loomis is a yuppie, that's rich. I am anything but a yuppie. Fresh college grad,working my butt off. I think that like most on this board, my passion is fishing. I just choose to spend my money on fishing equipment, and do without other things. Telling those who own Loomis to "get a life" is purely a sign of jealousy or lack of education on the differences between a high end rod and a snoopy rod. Didn't your mom ever tell you to say something nice or nothing at all?

Brad/nd

01-11-2001, 06:44 AM

Reading all these replies brought back a few memeories of gramp's & I catching all those fish with the old fashioned cane pole, line so tough, that a dull knife wouldn't cut it, and a rusty hook that barely poked through the worm! But you know, it worked!!

Take care!

Brad

Hoss

01-11-2001, 06:45 AM

I think IaCraig nailed it. Once you fished with some quality stuff - the sensitiviy amazes you and gets you addicted to tweaking everybit of "feel" out of your equipment you can. I think its for these kind of people to buy what they consider to be the "best". Don't worry about what other people think.

Bob G2

01-11-2001, 06:59 AM

You're right, aurora. Sage now has 3 pc travel rods. However, in the past, they used to have a much wider selection of spinning rod blanks. At that time, they were every bit a good as anything put out by G. Loomis, IMHO.

I make rods out of fly rod blanks where I can use a spinning reel on it. These can be very useful for bobbers, dead stick or a rigging rod. They are great on river walleye using the old split shot/night crawler technique or drift fishing for walleye. And yes, they double up nicely as steelhead rods. And it is in these applications where I like Sage (Just as sensitive, a bit more durable).

bob oh

01-11-2001, 07:00 AM

LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-01 AT 09:01AM (CST)[p]What it really boils down to is freedom. You are free to do whatever you want to do (if it is legal ;-)) and spend whatever you want to spend to do whatever it is you want to do. So, buy the rod you want and enjoy it and stop caring whether anyone else likes or approves of your rod ..... it's yours and you're free to own it!!!

Bob

PS I like Fenwick, they're great rods and I get a great deal on them ;-)

Hans

01-11-2001, 08:44 AM

When spending discretionary money on hobbies (I have 3 expensive hobbies - fishing, amateur radio, and woodworking), I have a habit of thinking in terms of 'opportunity cost'. Let me give you an example -- I like to have at least 5 rigged rods in the boat, especially when night fishing. Suppose all 5 rods are $300 GLoomis models = $1500. Now suppose just 1 is a GLoomis and 4 are $100 Fenwicks = $700, leaving $800 'opportunity' for other 'stuff'.

Hans

--
"There he stands, draped in more equipment than a telephone lineman,
trying to outwit an organism with a brain no bigger than a breadcrumb,
and getting licked in the process." -Paul O'Neil

Hans

01-11-2001, 08:48 AM

The best walleye fisherman I've ever met (or heard about) was my dad. Before he got "financially comfortable" late in life, his rig was a short stiff steel rod with a well worn direct-drive Shakespeare bait casting reel and black braided nylon line.

Hans

--
"There he stands, draped in more equipment than a telephone lineman,
trying to outwit an organism with a brain no bigger than a breadcrumb,
and getting licked in the process." -Paul O'Neil

Steve(CO)

01-11-2001, 08:50 PM

Brad:
Your post hit a chord. Several years ago, for a trip to Canada, I refinished my dad's old True Temper steel casting rod dating from the 1940's, keeping all the old components including steel guides. I matched this with a somewhat newer Ambassadeur reel and a pikie minnow dating from the 1940's (also his). I derived more enjoyment in catching a bunch of medium-sized pike with that outfit than I can remember. That's not to say that I don't enjoy using my most up-to-date, hi-tech gear, but we should not lose sight of why we fish - for pure enjoyment. My point? I guess how and why we fish is more important that what we use...and that's from a confirmed "tackle junkie." Please don't let my wife see this - I "need" a new rod!

aurora

01-12-2001, 12:05 AM

thanks bob, a guide friend of mine has an 8 ft Sage fly rod blank that he built for crappie fishing. Do you think a lot of sensitvity is lost when the rods are 2+ pieces?

Bob G2

01-12-2001, 05:59 AM

I don't think so. I think it interesting that the guy that I buy
my rod building stuff from uses alot of the 3 and 4 piece fly rods. He probably has personally built several hundred rods, or better, in his lifetime. He said the new designs in travel rods are incredible. While I will still stick to the 2piece design while I can, I thought it interesting that he has so much confidence in the multipiece design.

Bob G2

01-12-2001, 05:59 AM

Bob G2

01-12-2001, 06:17 AM

One other consideration here relative to rod costs vs sensitivity. Presently, you cannot have a light sensitive rod and something that is very durable. As much as the manufacturers try, it is stands to follow that the lighter the blank, the thinner the blank walls are. When building rods, this is easily seen when comparing, lets say a GLX blank and, on the other extreme, a Lamiglas blank.

Because the purchasing public would hedge initially on spending 200-300+ on one rod, a matching great warranty is offered on breakage. Thus, in turn, given a higher probability that said light and sensitive rod may break, the higher price, in all likelyhood would be representative of covering the warranty.

It will be interesting to see if the new titanium resin impregnated rods will be a little more durable. A few of these are using 84 mil modulus graphite, yeesh.

Maybe Han's dad had it right and eventually we will go back to using some kind of steel/metal alloy all over again.

Scott

01-12-2001, 01:21 PM

Nothing like good ole fashioned opinonation there. I'd hardly be taken for a yuppie. No, I don't NEED a Loomis, I don't NEED a tow vehicle and I don't NEED a boat. But I can afford all three. Life is too short and I enjoy high quality products. I can't afford them all, but in my hobbies, I do try to buy the best I can afford.

I can tell a difference between rods. In addition to liking quality products, I am also frugal and if I couldn't tell the difference, you can bet I wouldn't fork out the money. If you can't then that's fine. Don't pretend you're some type of rocket scientist because you don't NEED this type of rod. My house is paid for and so is all my equipment. I'm a big boy, so if I think I can afford it, and I can tell the difference, I'll buy it. Mind your own business.

Neal/CO

01-12-2001, 02:47 PM

I have never felt a need to buy such a stick, but see why others might. I am just really getting into the walleye game and most of my jigging used to be for large trout and Pike. They are not the soft biters that walleye's can be. I could see the reasoning for owning at least one high quality jigging rod. Owning such a rod won't help you find fish, which is still 75% of the game, but to each his own. I would also think a light rod would make the job of holding a rod all day more enjoyable. As little time as I get to fish that is very important. I must admit I was looking at the Avids last night and trying to justify the cost in my own mind.

Weyes1

01-12-2001, 08:51 PM

Neal,
For one, The St. Croix warranttee and reputation. Not to slam G Loomis, but St. Croix from what I have heard have usually taken very good care of their customers. G Loomis now charges for replacement even on Lifetime warranttees. (I think it's $45.00)
Buy the Avid, I don't think you will be disappointed one bit.
Just my thoughts.
Weyes1
Kevin Clark

Jack

01-12-2001, 09:49 PM

From the comments this posting generated it seems to me we have way too much time on our hands during the hard water period.

I agree with Steve on this matter. I think paying big bucks for a rod is similar to paying over $100.00 for a pair of Nike tennis shoes endorsed by a big sports star. That said, I think enough guys testify to the advantages of expensive rods that I am willing to try one if I can get a recommendation, or at least a consensus, of what would be a top notch jigging rod to buy and use. Lets say a rod for quarter ounce jigs.

Any suggestions?

Craig

01-13-2001, 06:43 AM

I like the SJR 721 IMX Loomis. Just like everyone else, I was a non-believer until I bought a few and started using them exclusively. Whether that little bit of extra sensitivity is worth the price, that is clearly an opinion. My opinion says yes. And for the record, Loomis has yet to charge me for any rods I have sent in over the winter, and I am not a pro-staffer.

01-13-2001, 06:34 PM

A very sensitive, pleasure to fish with all day, all around
Jigging and some rigging rod is a loomis, IMX 782. Custom made
with an all cork handle, no reel seat, so you can place the reel
to your liking, handles like a dream. I own several loomis rods
and have seen the sensitivity go up and the weight go down over the last 10 years. I do believe the durability factor does come into play though. You can't treat these high end rods like you would an ugly stick, nor should you. They are a tool, and like most craftsman, you want the best tools you can afford. I also believe that you can have just as much fun with the more affordable equipment. And if the fish are biting, you will have fun with whatever you can beg, borrow or steal to use.

WAeyes

01-13-2001, 06:50 PM

An IMX 782 with a custom made all cork handle? You sound like the doctor for my problem (read G-Loomis Expert thread, last post. How does one go about having a custom rod built? How much more expensive or cheaper is it?

The Great Guide

01-13-2001, 10:50 PM

17 years ago I saved my quaters and then bought a $170 7' custom built jigging rod with a Sage blank. I have used this rod at least 50% of the 40 to 50 days I fish for W's each year. The blank is tough as nails and the construction has been bullit proof. That's $10 a year. I have a Loomis IMX that use for long lining and pulling jigs. I've had this rod for 4 years and have had the same experience. I expect to eventually have the same value with the Loomis. I guess my point is if you do your research and get quality when you purchase a rod the lifecycle cost is very reasonable.

Steve(CO)

01-14-2001, 09:39 AM

Lots of people have commented on the "extra" time we have on our hands in mid-winter. One answer to this and to the current thread is to build yourself a top quality rod. I have been building rods for many years and it is a great addition to my fishing enjoyment. There is something neat about fishing with a rod you have made. You also save at least 30-40% over buying the same rod from the manufacturer. This goes for most brands; I have built both Sage and Loomis fly rods, as well as others. Rod building is really very easy - I am pretty much of a clutz and I can do it. This bodes well for just about anyone who has working fingers.
I have the Cabela's 2001 Tackle Craft catalog in front of me and they offer a full line of their own blanks plus Loomis, St. Croix, and Shakespeare Ugly Sticks. They also offer all the necessary components, kits (a bunch on sale), books on how-to, etc. I'm sure Reed's and other shops offer similar stuff.
Try it, you'll like it!

steve(IL)

01-14-2001, 03:03 PM

If you don't already haveit, track down a catalog from :
Jann's Netcraft in Maumee, OH and maybe Netcraft.com. Awesome rod building materials catalog.

01-14-2001, 05:14 PM

A little investigation will find you a good custom rod maker close to home. The beauty of a custom rod is that it is set up exactly for you. The all cork handle can be shaped to fit your hand, if you like a thick handle, a thin handle, a tapered handle etc. the builder can accomodate you. You also can be assured the the spline is correct, you have your choice of guides, SIC or hardloy. The guide spacing will be done correctly for even distribution of power inthe blank. You also will have the ability to pick your own blank, look for a straight one, they are not all created equal. some will have a completely different feel than others. When you find the right one, it will feel like it was made just for you. Cabela's blanks are manufactured by Loomis, they come in loomis plastic bags. Take a look at them if you can get to a Cabela's store they will let you examine blanks to pick out the right one for you. A custom rod will not cost you much more than a Loomis right off the rack. The only problem is, once you start it hard to go back to the off the rack rods, you begin to notice all the little things that mass produced, cottage rods have wrong with them.

tbomn

01-14-2001, 06:30 PM

Get used to it, Sonny Boy. I have lived for nearly 60 years and have owned Lund boats every since Howard Lund built the first one in his little shop on the north side of highway 10 in New York Mills, MN in 1948, 9 miles down the road from my home. You know what I am??? I am a stuck-up, self-impossed, stuck-on-myself, better than everyone else.....Lund owner. Go figure!! Oh yes, by the way, I paid to much for it also, just so I could have the name Lund on the side. It is "a cruel world".

I just want to fish!!!
Good Fishin'
TBO/MN