hey cisco...did you do the experiment?

[vetspet(ind)]

probably not...you were too worried about my typo of the boiling temp of water ...however being a conservative...who by nature are more interested in truth than the liberal minded who are more interested in emotions....i performed the experiment you may want to confirm my findings but being a liberal you probably will just think i'm lying since i'm a conservative christian... they certainly don't know what the truth is because they don't believe in evolution or worse yet...they believe in the concept that absolute truth is a reality in certain matters...at any rate ...to get off my bandwagon...i iced down an open container of water to around 35 degrees...then i boiled water (212 degrees)removed the ice from the first container....set both in my freezer and waited...had my kids participate...showed them the postings which said i was wrong...and we got to see who was right....i'm still the "man" in my kid's eyes!!!! hands down winner....the problem is most people don't know how this experiment is done in the books which tell the kids how to do it the original experiment used boiled water vs tap water...but the two containers are allowed to equilibrate to the same temperature and then the freezing is done...the boiled water has lost some of its minerals and will freeze faster....the reason i knew you were wrong...other than you are a liberal and that gives me a huge head start....is i have literally done the experiment in my ice shelter....seeing is believing...i took my mr heater ...boiled water in my tea kettle and poured the water into my freezing holes and they stayed open!!! facts...not fancy.....will win arguments every day....the same can be said for many of your political ideas but concepts are more difficult to prove than freezing water...however the concept that you believe(d) on freezing should make you curious enough to see for yourself...when(if) you do and discover you are wrong...maybe... just maybe this may lead to self-examination of other concepts you hold dear to your liberal heart....but then again...liberals dont like logic and reason...their heart is led not by their brains....they have this heart which leads the brain...steves musings

[cisco]

So what else is new? I point out a mistake in your post and you attack me. Water boils at 212 degrees Fahrenheidt -- fact. You specifically said 244 (but now it becomes a typo). Eliminate your penchant for elipses and write in complete sentences and perhaps such "typos" will disappear.

And, yes, I also know there are variables in boiling (and freezing) temperatures. For example, water boils at lower temps in high altitude. Thus, should you care to camp in the High Sierras, you could probably boil at 210 or even 209 degrees. But, you had better be getting into the thin air to achieve that.

One other item -- Is it "science" in Indiana to make broad generalizations about women based on what your spouse likes, or dislikes? Spatial relationships are not gender based. That's not a liberal or a conservative position (yes, it's possible to move outside those realms) it's scientific fact. Anthropology is a science.

Last item: You have no business making allegations about my religious faith. You don't have a clue what I believe, even though I have the capacity to forgive your ignorance.

[Ness]

I had hoped that once we got that awful election over with that the political jibs and posts would stop..... Guess I was wrong???
But I've always been an optimist so I'll keep hoping. Either of you, boys, been fishing lately? :-)

[WAeyes]

I'll second that!

[Goldpig]

Was your experiment determining which would freeze faster, tap water or boiling water? For the record, the minerals did not evaporate. I will not bore everyone with the fine details, but the boiling water freezes quicker because the accelerated particles slow down quicker than those at a near stand still in the tap water. I am not sure if this is an inside joke or not, but I thought someone should set the record straight.

[SUPERTROLLER]

I was going to say the same thing about the minerals. Simple common sense says it takes longer to give up more heat from boiling water for it to freeze than for water at room temp. or straight from the tap, which would be much cooler than room temperature. How can they possibly be arguing over how fast you can freeze water? That has nothing to do with being Liberal or Conservative, and very little to do with fishing. Is there a web site for "Debaters Anonymous" where people that like to argue can go to annoy each other?

P.S. I may have traded barbs with Ness in the Cabin Fever post but we were having fun with each other, you guys gotta learn to play nice.

[Ness]

Actually, Supertroller is my husband and he gets on the computer in the other room and we shoot barbs at each other. It does wonders for our marriage... Only kidding :-)

[Fuzzy]

ST is right. H20 molecules must be moving slow enough to covalently bond to other H20 molecules. This can only occur at temperatures at or below 32 degrees F. The displacement of heat from 212 water requires more time than 35 degree water requires in a constant state. It is thermodynamically impossible for the reverse to be true. This hot water freezing thing is a old wives tale often disproved in grade school. And pertetuated by nihilists ;).

[Ness]

Nihilism- the rejection of all religious and moral principles as the only means of obtaining social progress; the denial of all reality in phenomena.
I had to look that one up... thought I'd share it just in case anyone else on here shares my IQ. Thank you, Mr. Webster :-)

[vetspet(ind)]

your liberal bias is again showing....i have taken four college level anthropology courses so i have some backround in the field...i would not call it a science since physical anthropology can not be proven...you have taken their bait hook line and sinker....science is defined by repeatability...anthropologist want you to think they are scientists....on the contrary they have theories...with many many holes in them....they never tell you the holes yet they know well that there are so many holes as to make many of their rank and file declare darwinian evolution could not have occurred because there only appear new species w/o the intermediaries....so the Gould group comes up with the "punctuated equilibrium" or hopeful monster theory...why is it so difficult to believe that a creator may chose to use commonality in His creation?...because this takes faith...on the other hand you will believe in theories of evolution without much thought as to why you believe it...well...i've studied both sides quite thoroughly and have my conclussions based on study of the facts ...and altho i don't have all the answers...i have enough to form a logical conclussion...since liberals don't read anything which may unseat their ideals of utopia you probably would not take me up on reading just one book...somewhat scientific but you sound like an intelligent if not gullible guy..."darwins black box" by michail behe.....it speaks volumes on the impossibility of evolution on a biochemical basis...discussing such molecular impossibilities of hemoglobbin evolving..which would have to happen along with phenotypic evolution...ie molecular evolution must occur if we really evolve...just read one book...i will read yours and we can discuss this on e-mail....just like i challenged tbomn to discuss the facts of separation of church and state...and only got silence....lets see if you can back up your beliefs...i can...steve....ps...was trying to be funny about my wife...but i realize that such statements are politically incorrect...and you liberals are very good at sticking to the politically correct mode...lets just see if you can convince us we came up from the ranks of our simian friends

[vetspet(ind)]

the original debate occurred because i mentioned pouring hot water in my ice fishing hole to prevent freezing up so fast... i went fishing late at nite and it was very cold and my hole kept freezing up...i'd get a bite and set the hook and when i would reel the ice would jam up in my rod's eyes....so i wondered if using hot water in the hole would be the best way to avoid this as i did it once and it seemed to help...or is there a better way?...cisco informed me that adding boiling water only makes the problem worse as water will freeze faster if you use boiling water...well...i knew this was not correct as i did it once..but i was wondering if there was any other ideas on how to keep the holes open...and i commented that this idea of boiling water came from our grade school science fairs...but they don't use the same conditions as are found in my ice shanty...cisco thought the same priciple existed and he is wrong...the temperature in the hole is very close to freezing as it freezes over very quickly...when i add boiling water i am drastically changing the temperature especially as heat will rise...so the local temp in the top of the hole is made many degrees warmer than if no hot water is added...in this example which is the one i used...the boiling water hole will definately stay open much better than if i do not use hot water...that is all i said...i also stated the wrong temp at which water freezes and cisco got all over me because of it....even tho he was wrong on the basic issue..he elected to pick on an incidental error rather than stick to the issue of freezing ice holes....he probably has a problem with me because i am conservative...for bush...a christian....probably he dislikes veterinarians...at least if he discovers they are christian or conservative...i don't know what his problem is but i'll wager he wont read the book i suggested....steve

[cisco]

I said no such thing. You've repeatedly attacked me, presumed beliefs to be held by me, and misquoted me. I simply indicated the error of 244 degrees Fahrenheidt to boil water. You said that was correct, and you also said you were a science fair judge -- convenient appeal to authority. Now you say you have taken four college courses in anthropology, but refute the most basic premise of that social science.

And, of course, you ascribe to me religious beliefs you know nothing of and will never know anything of, since I will not detail them here. You could try Ephesians for some guidance, but it is Paul's most profound work and will probably escape you. Oh, I forgot, you are the wise one, the knowledgeable one.

Under science you'll find names such as Boaz, Malinowski, Mead, Kluckhohn, Bohanan, Garbarino, and Benedict (partial list) -- all of whom are referred to as anthropologists. As with so many other things, you simply dismiss that through your infinite knowledge.

Ness -- I had nothing political in my post. Our Indiana veterinarian sees political ideologies everywhere. And, he makes scientific generalizations about women based on his wife.

[Just Curious]

So hot water will always freeze faster than cooler water (say 200 vs 100) assuming same chemical composition?

[Goldpig]

Oops, I didn't realize the debate was over very cold water vs. boiling. But, boiling water will freeze before lukewarm!

[CI_Guy]

The way I understand it (no garantee that it's right) is that when you boil water you remove "air" or gasses that are not in a liquid state from the water. Air is an insulator so the boiled water would drop more degrees per minute than the non boiled water. Which one freezes first would be determined by how much air is in the nonboiled water compaired to the boiled water, and how many degrees it has to be cooled to reach freezing. Pat K

[cisco]

Yes, I know there are variables. BUT this whole mess was precipitated by the fact vetspet(Ind) said water boils at 244 degrees Fahrenheidt -- I pointed out that might be the case in Indiana (he regularly takes potshots at Minnesota education) but that the actual (usual) temp is 212 degrees Fahrenheidt.

The Indiana vet made it political, religious, mystical, and authoritarian, refusing to acknowledge an error. He later called it a typo. Let's see, a typo on 212 gets 244 ?? Was the intent 211 ? The 211 figure would be correct at high altitude, but Indiana's four hills barely measure more than Lake Michigan's elevation of approx 580' above sea level.

Water relatively free of impurities will freeze at 212.

[Uh oh....]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but water boils at 212 it doesn't freeze. I knew what you meant:)LOL

[Fuzzy]

It's the other way around, boiling water at 212 will turn to steam faster than cold water and cold water will freeze before boiling water at sub 32. It's just simple thermaldynamics.
This is just an ole wives tale.

[Goldpig]

I didn't want to get technical but here it goes:

To the first part of the question--'Does hot water freeze faster than cold water?'--the answer is 'Not usually, but possibly under certain conditions.' It takes 540 calories to vaporize one gram of water, whereas it takes 100 calories to bring one gram of liquid water from 0 degrees Celsius to 100 degrees C. When water is hotter than 80 degrees C, the rate of cooling by rapid vaporization is very high because each evaporating gram draws at least 540 calories from the water left behind. This is a very large amount of heat compared with the one calorie per Celsius degree that is drawn from each gram of water that cools by regular thermal conduction.

It all depends on how fast the cooling occurs, and it turns out that hot water will not freeze before cold water but will freeze before lukewarm water. Water at 100 degrees C, for example, will freeze before water warmer than 60 degrees C but not before water cooler than 60 degrees C. This phenomenon is particularly evident when the surface area that cools by rapid evaporation is large compared with the amount of water involved, such as when you wash a car with hot water on a cold winter day.

Another situation in which hot water may freeze faster is when a pan of cold water and a pan of hot water of equal mass are placed in a freezer compartment. There is the effect of evaporation mentioned above, and also the thermal contact with the freezer shelf will cool the bottom part of the body of water. If water is cold enough, close to four degrees C (the temperature at which water is densest), then near-freezing water at the bottom will rise to the top. Convection currents will continue until the entire body of water is 0 degrees C, at which point all the water finally freezes. If the water is initially hot, cooled water at the bottom is denser than the hot water at the top, so no convection will occur and the bottom part will start freezing while the top is still warm. This effect, combined with the evaporation effect, may make hot water freeze faster than cold water in some cases. In this case, of course, the freezer will have worked harder during the given amount of time, extracting more heat from hot water.

[SUPERTROLLER]

Ness, I'm definitely looking forward to the next time we make-up with each other. OH BABY!! YEEEEHHAAAAHHH !!!

[cisco]

Thanks.

Now, can we all agree that water usually will boil at 212 degrees Fahrenheidt, not 244 ?

[vetspet(ind)]

first of all the potshots all started with tbomn discussing bush's education programs in texas....i stated that while in minn our quality of edu was less than exemplary....we had a tenured teacher who taught our daughter in gilbert minn who played romper room or sesame street all day long instead of teaching...we complained and were told he was tenured and basically nothing could be done...others complained...nothing was done....so i made a statement that texas schools have a much different situation first of all with all the immigrants and hispanic aliens which minn does not have...this alone makes for a huge difference...second i mentioned that if bush's accountability had been applied to our school system the problem would have fixed itself...hopefully...well...that led to my crucifixion....tbomn and i had several dialogues and nothing really got settled...buy my guess is cisco is a teacher in minn and has not buried the hatchet....on archive #273 i asked a very appropriate question on how to get around the ice jamming on my rod when i set a hook ice fishing....cisco says he is not antagonistic but here is his reply....in minnessota...a(l)beit handicapped...by inferior quality of education...we know that water boils at 212 degrees...but we are not smart enough to be science fair judges...we also write in complete sentences... i'd call that inflammatory....here he tries to make a case for teachers....i take time off from my very busy veterinary practice to judge science fairs...generally do two a yr...along with 4-5 career days at public schools....and i get called on my inaccuracy on the boiling point of water....i knew it was 212 but incorrectly put 244 not really thinking about it at the time...i'm getting old and the brain fails me at times....and he gets all over me...the real issue is philosophical...he does not like the fact that i like bush....he just wont admit it....i see a giant ego out there....maybe mine is also...but i think i see one even larger .....i may be the only science fair judge who literally studies for the fairs...some of the students have "snowed" me on the magnets and magnetic fields in the past so i had my brother in law give me books on electromagnets etc so that i knew what i was talking about and could judge better...no...being a judge does not make me know so much...i used the example because i thought it applied to the reasoning that some people think boiling water will always freeze before non boiling water as this is a common experiment they do...it just does not apply to an ice fishing hole in the least....because the water in the hole is just ready to freeze so obviously adding hot water will delay freezing...also for the record it was aquaman who said the water will freeze faster...not cisco...cisco just gave me a lot of grief...and now he thinks we evolved and that it is scientifically proven....boy would i like to have a debate with him in front of his pupils...truth is most teachers who espouse this theory have no clue what they believe...their school system just tells them they gotta teach it so they do....steve

[Dubya]

Steve, as a fellow conservative and christian, why dont you be the bigger man here and let it go. It would show alot more integrity on your part if you did.

[Kevin/CO]

The point that has been brought up and that was mentioned in the post I am replying to is correct. By bioling the water you remove the "contamination" (for lack of a better word) from the water. Once the particles that were excelerated by the heating the water calm down the covalent bonding that is necessary for water to become solid or freeze takes a markably leser amount of time. The thought that I believe CISCO was referring to is that possible by adding the heated water to the cold water the ambient temperature is slightly raised for a period of time. After that heated water dilutes its self in the cold water the previous elements that "contaminated" (again for the lack of a better word) are distelled. With the distellation having taken place that rate at which the water can freeze becomes increased. Now thise may seem weird both vesp and CISCO are in their own rights correct. However I do have to side a bit more with CISCO not only because he is using more science but becuase he has defended himself with in my opinion more class.

[River_eye]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-01 AT 10:11PM (CST)[p]water molecules do not and cannot form a covalent bond, they themselves are held together by covalent bonds, but the only thing acting between the H2O molecules are intermolecular forces, in this case, Hydrogen bonding.

Hydrogen bonding is an intermolecular force exclusive to hyrdrogen atoms. The H2O molecule is a polar molecule, having all shared electrons being pulled closer to the oxygen atom, due to it's higher electronegativity. It has 8 protons to hydrogens 1. Because of this, the hydrogen takes on a partial positive charge which is attracted (but not bonded) to the partial negative charge on the oxygen atom of another H2O molecule.

This is what determines water's high melting and boiling points compared to other molecules of similar size.

Sorry to get all scientific on you, but I was just itching to put what I learned last term to use.

River eye

[River_eye]

H2O Molecules do not covalently bond to each other!!!!! ARgggggg!

River eye

[Fuzzy]

River eye-

Thanks for the chem lesson and I hope this ends the debate.

I just want two simple things:

1. credit for the first guy to mention covalent bonding. It's been over 15 years since Chem 103 and couldn't believe I remembered it. ;-)

2. for Mr. Cisco and Mr. IndyVet to put aside differences, shake hands and fall in line under our new President - like him or not. Life is too short and there are too many walleyes to be caught.

Keep your nets wet!

[Weyes1]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-01 AT 10:40PM (CST)[p]I retracted my original comments due to the fact that there is just too much mud slinging on this board. The elections are over and we have to get on with life and just try to grin and bear it for four more years.
Get out and GO FISHING!
Weyes1
Kevin Clark

[River_eye]

You have illustrated how people can be led to believe that hot water freezes before cold, but it's still not the case.

The reason that hot water may appear to freeze faster when it is in an open container, next to an equally full container of lukewarm water, is because of the evapouration. You cannot compare the time it takes to freeze, if the volumes of the two samples are different at time of freezing.

If you start out with equal volumes, it doesn't mean you will end up with equal volumes.

You said:

"If the water is initially hot, cooled water at the bottom is denser than the hot water at the top, so no convection will occur and the bottom part will start freezing while the top is still warm."


There's no way that ice will form at the bottom of a tray in the freezer. Just doesn't happen. Any ice crystals that form will immediately be displaced by the more dense water and float up to the surface and melt. Like you said, water is most dense at 4C, so if there is any warm water, the water that is 4 will always be at the bottom.

I'm still impressed with your knowledge though, just couldn't resist a healthy discussion.


River eye

[Backwater Eddy]

Is it true the human head weighs 6 lb's?

:D

Kidding.........te-he..

[cisco]

I said nothing about evolution. I said nothing about Bush. I said nothing about pouring water into an ice fishing hole. I am not a Minnesota teacher. Go back to your busy veterinary medicine practice, where I hope you are wrong less often than here.

Incidentally, I wouldn't be surprised if you studied for your urine test. You'd still be wrong.

That's it. Water still boils at 212 degrees Fahrenheidt.

[cisco]

Is that with or without hair?

[Backwater Eddy]

Increasingly without.

Keep a smile everyone, with the passing of each day spring becomes nearer and in July we will again wish for winter.

;D

BE.....><ND>

[Goldpig]

Now, now, I never said cold water would freeze faster than hot water, I said lukewarm. I have spent countless hours and money on thermodynamics and quite sure everything I wrote is correct. In fact, much of what was used in one of my papers in college. Incidentally, I got an A on that paper. That typically doesn't happen with flawed analysis. I will find some websites from credible sources that prove this too you, and enlighten us all.

[Ness]

I never wish for winter... Good grief, it's snowing again....

[vetspet(ind)]

well, let's see....if you are not a teacher, then with the way you twist everything i say and deny everything you say... i will guess that you are bill clintons public relations man...yes...cisco ...i think that is it....if you are not slick willy's pr-man i think you either must be related or missed your calling....you say on 1/24 posting that i accused you of.... well i have researched the original thread....i was asking a legitimate question on keeping my hole from icing up and you got all over me because i wrote the incorrect temp of boiling water....so who attacked who?....sort of like bill clinton did not inhale?....you sure you are not related?....on the second post dated 1/24 you incorrectly interpreted my intent of listing my being a science fair judge as meaning i am an authority ... that was never my intent, but as you are able to read minds now i cann't prove intent..altho i tried to explain that the concept of boiling water freezing faster than non-boiling water comes from science fairs which i have judged....did not fare too well on that one either oh wise cisco...then today you state that you said nothing about evolution!!!! ...well bill...you got me there.......you really got me there...you pulled the old clinton trick....you just said everything else...ie...it is a "science".....that "it" is the most basic premise of that science.......and listed six names related(i assume the names are all anthropologists)...and since these names are listed somewhere under the name "scientists"...as you say...then this automatically validates the premise of anthropology....that is circular thinking....you try to be clever as to not use a specific "word"..then you can deny you ever said that word when you and i know full well you were referring to anthropology...sort of like clinton saying he did not have sex with monica...again...you missed your calling..and again the minn school system is fortunate that you don't have opportunities to use your phony rhetoric on youth...steve...ps...i will be absent for a few days as i am attending a veterinary conference in indy tomorrow...hope i can get one more jab in tonite but may not have time...and that will be my finale scott if you read this...i agree this should be a fishing site but cisco started this and i have always been one to not run from a fight.....apologies to any person i may have offended....steve

[EAGLE EYES]

River_eye, Think about it for a minute! If water is at it's maximum density-39.2 F (I don't do Celsius) how will it rise above the water molecules that are hotter than this? If the water mass is set in a cold area to freeze, the surface area in contact with the bottom of the dish or pan is much colder than the air temp above. Since cold air falls rather than rise, it will be colder on the bottom of the pan. Now, this freezing from the bottom up is only possible if the water is HOT. This is because of the speedy molecular activity of the warmer water on top vs. the slower moving molecules underneath. Gotta love Chemistry! :-) Because of the pressure of the water Molecules on top the lower molecules are forced to slow down faster creating dead water waiting to break or freeze! So, Goldpig is 100% accurate with his anatomy! :-)

[EAGLE EYES]

Ahh Ness, come on! Ya gotta love winter! Smell the crispy fresh air! and... and...??? Oh No! Whens spring coming? :-)

[Tom/MN]

If I'm ever driving across Indiana and suddenly in need of a vet, I'll be sure to........keep driving. Are you sure that was water you were dumping in your hole and not some Old Crow.

[EAGLE EYES]

Maybe some people's! But, most weigh 8 pounds. Sorry Eddy couldn't resist! :-)

[SUPERTROLLER]

How do we know 8 lbs. is correct? Did you write a college thesis on the weight of heads? Do you have a Web site we can go to so we can varify this statement? This is all we need! Another bunch of unsubstantiated "facts" floating around! Like worrying everyone crazy about the freezing rate of water wasn't bad enough, now we have to figure out who has a Standard weight head and who's head is full of rocks. Where will all this insanity end?

SUPERTROLLER

(P.S. I couldn't resist either.LOL.)

[EAGLE EYES]

Did you know that dogs and bees can smell fear!! :-)

[Backwater Eddy]

LOL, Thar ya go Eagel Eyes now ya got it!

:)

[TBO/MN]

Man, you haven't got any smarter since the last time we had a dialogue. You seem to "blow" at just about anything, and then slam people because they don't look down the same "end of the pipe" as you do. There is no way anyone can be right when discussing anything with you, you are the "last word" because you have the religion and the politics on your side. Here is some "reality" for you.....your religion isn't number one in the world, your world isn't the one that most people live in, and the sun doesn't rise out of your underwear. This board would not miss your departure, we would all have conversations about fishing related things without bringing religion or conservative politics into it.

If you talk "fishing" all the time, Steve, we would never know you are such a *******.

Go fishin'
TBO/MN

[vetspet(ind)]

i did not start this one....yell at cisco...check the thread....i asked an appropriate question and cisco was all over me for some reason which he won't divulge....obviously he's angry at some other thread...but i was not being political... religious...or anything else except wondering what the readers do to avoid icing up....why do you liberals all come all over me when i ask a legitimate question??? past is past..let it lie...check this thread from the first one#273 in the archives....and then you may apologize for blaming me for this one....just check it out...then yell at cisco...steve...i like tbomn...seems like a good guy...we just differ on politics...and he never answered me on separation of church and state...other than that i thought we were ok...sorry tbomn...steve

[vetspet(ind)]

this whole mess was precipitated by cisco giving a wise-crack answer to a totally unrelated question dealing with ice freezing in holes...instead of answering he began to rant about my incorrectly listing the boiling point of water...that had nothing at all to do with keeping the hole free of ice...the priciple is...boiling water will /will not keep an ice hole open longer....not what that temp is...and he knows he was out of line and being a wise guy...just won't admit that he started this one....check out the original post on #273

[TBO/MN]

Geeeez !!!! Grow-up, I don't care who started it. You sound like my 4th graders. Just look at what I said. We don't want nor care what your political and religious views are. Cisco and the rest of us are sick of hearing you spout your religion and political crap. You present yourself as an intelligent person, get the hint!!!!

Go Fishin'
TBO/MN

[Mean Mike]

SHUT UP! oh, yea, and fish.

[River_eye]

When you say that water at the top is hot, how hot do you mean? Warm to the touch? room temperature? and how deep of a dish are we talking about?

Well, since I don't know farenheit, I'll have to use celcius, but it shouldn't really matter.

If there is warm water and freezing water in the same pan, there must be a spectrum of temps in between right? (meaning that there is no fine line between the warm and freezing water)

Correct me if I'm wrong, the freezing water will be at 0 degrees celcius (freezing point), and the warm water will be more than 4 degrees celcius(temp at which water is most dense0, right?

Being that there is a spectrum of temperatures in between the warm and freezing water, somwhere there must be water that is at 4 C. Once again, correct me if I'm wrong. Now, being that the water at 4 C is most dense (but not freezing), wouldn't the most dense water be at the bottom of the pan? This would push the water that was closer to freezing above it.

When you say that ice can form at the bottom of a pan, you are saying that the less dense freezing water, is below the most dense water at 4 C. How could the most dense water stay in the middle and not sink to the bottom of the pan, displacing any ice crystals forming?

River eye

[River_eye]

seems to me that you need a vacation

River eye

[River_eye]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-01 AT 05:43PM (CST)[p]LOL!!!!! :D

River eye

[Canadian Red Neck]

Is this why when I open a beer on the ice and there is no ice in when its closed and ice forms instantly when it is opened? It is amazing to see crystals form right in front of your eyes.

[Mell]

I hear ya!!

[BigGuy]

Did u guys get picked on in school for being nerds with pocket protectors. Belligerant *******s!!!

[Tough Guy]

Tough Guy want Cisco and Steve to sumo wrestle on ice for braggin rights.

[Kevin/CO]

Thanks for catching that. I should have put ionic bond i just didn't think and allowed that covalent thing to stick in my head. Good call.

[Come on guy's]

kiss and make up

[BigGuy]

SUMO WRESTLING!!!!

[SUPERTROLLER]

Appears to me that you guys aren't drinking it quick enough. Especially that part about setting it down. That's just wasted motion, you have to pick it back up. SHEEEESH !

[flyboy]

Wow, you guys all have cabin fever so bad, you don't realize your even talking. I know it's not the same, but atleast go ice fishing. Some of the discussion has been interesting, but 57 posts?

-John

[vetspet(ind)]

hey...i was an undefeated high school wrestler...until the sectionals....so i would probably beat him on the matts...however i am an old fart and maybe on the other hand he is 250 lbs and may just be so mad that he'd hit me first and ask questions later...then tbomn would get us both for acting like fourth graders...and i would have to agree ....we are acting rather adolescent.....its the only thing i can do during these long winter days....other than think up ways to keep my ice fishing holes open!!....steve

[D189]

You people are either way too smart to be good fishermen or you are world class BSers and therefore great fishermen. Either way, I'm impressed!
D189

[River_eye]

sorry to have to correct you again, it's actually an intermolecular force called "hydrogen bonding" but it is not much different than ionic bonding, it's actually not a bond at all, but just a really strong attractive force that happens only between a hydrogen atom and another polar molecule, or even the same molecule, containing oxygen, nitrogen or fluorine.

I took all this last term in university chemistry, so I'm pulling this stuff straight out of my text book. I probably won't remember half of it five years from now.



River eye

[I P Freely]

I took a pee in a fish hole once. It stayed open for awhile. One thing I learned not to do after that was to suck the ice off my bobbers!!!!!!!

[EAGLE EYES]

Your right about the spectrum of temps! However, Water placed in a certain container in a freezer, can freeze from the bottom up. this is because the H20 with greater density will sometimes freeze as it is falling. (This depends on the ambient temp) thus, the frozen molecules stick to and lay on top of, the already frozen water. Think about it this way, when a lake changes over or (Turn-over as it's better known) this event takes time. It does not happen instantly, gravity takes time. So, getting back to the point, if the ambient temp in the area of this so called pan of water is low enough, the water molecules never stay at maximum density long enough to replace the frozen less dense molecules below them. PS. I'm just some Cliffy Clavin who thinks he knows everything. I am a water/wastewater treatment tech. I've seen many many many water molecules in my time. Too many, if ya know what I mean! :-)

[Fuzzy]

Hey Hoser - dat's cuz you ain't letting da Molson covalently bond with your belly. Drink'em up faster and get another one!!

:-)

[Canadian Red Neck]

You sound like a scientific type of guy. I only went to grade four before I had to go to work in the mine. Can you shed some light as to why beer crystalizes instantly in very cold weather when you pop the cap? I know I can drink it faster to avoid it getting cold as some have suggested but the original question remains. Please reply in English. We are a little upset with those gees in Quebec even though that guy Laundry has apologised to the rest of our great nation for his slur on our great flag.
CRN

[ufda]

Now I know why the ##### perch won't bite! Its all those covalencies and thermodynamicallies swimmin around down there distracting them and polluting their enviroment! ;-)
You're right, winter is getting a little long and boooorrrrringg!
ufda

[ishpeming]

all this science make Ishpeming think. Ishpeming do own experiment. after learning here water get hard in cold temps, Ishpeming wonder what happen when opposite occurs. so Ishpeming left snow he track in sit on kitchen floor to see what happen. Ishpeming learn 2 things.

1) snow become water when warmed.

2) Mrs. Ishpeming get mad when snow melt on kitchen floor.

Ishpeming not so brave so Ishpeming blame 3 legged dog Tripod for snow on floor. Dog forgive sooner than Mrs. ishpeming.

Ishpeing out

[EAGLE EYES]

Well.... there are more than one factors that cause this, but I will explain the biggest part of it. Pressure plays the largest part of this one. The can of beer is under pressure and this lowers the freezing temp. of the water molecules. So, when the beer is set outside in the cold the content will contain a lesser temp. than it normally could achieve under normal atmospheric temp. So, because the content of this can beer is probably around 30 degrees (just a guess) when you open it, it is 2 degrees lower than it's actual freezing temp. under normal atmosperic pressure. Thus, this particular can of beer will freeze what seems almost instantly when opened and exposed to normal air pressure. drink em up!! EE

[EAGLE EYES]

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE! D amn that was funny!

[just fish guys]

Water boils at 212 degrees. Wow, apparently blood boils at much colder temps.

[jerk baiter]

Ishpeming, you and Tough Guy must never fish together. the rest of the world just could not take it. }>

[Kevin/CO]

Atleast I was corrected with some one who has the right answer. In the Chem class that I am in we didn't go to the depth of that type of bond when we were studying bonding (high school chem what can I say). But its all good anyway, atleast today I can say I learned something.

[Joel B.]

How come this post hasn't been deleted? Doesn't seem to be doing anyone any good.

Joel B.

[Stecil Geets]

Need to keep this post in front

[Joel B.]

Huh??

Joel

[Irish]

Unbelievable..........Walleye Central huh

[PO'ed]

Vetspet:
Please just stop it right now. Nobody cares about your views on any of this crap.Your last post mentioned not a single word about walleye or even fishing for that matter. We need Dean Wormer to put you on double secret probation. Please take your religious/political/righteous smack elsewhere.

[Po'ed]

Vetspet needs to change his handle to "The Last Angry Man"

[Iman]

Tough Guy should pay these guys a visit & settle it

[River_eye]

I'm kind of a fan of the stuff too, for many reasons. Good fishing.

River eye

[SUPERTROLLER]

EAGLE EYES, did you attend college in the U.P.?

SUPERTROLLER (BdNCC-1980)