Gas price going up to $3.00 per gal?

[ranger1]

I have heard some scuttlebutt on the radio and news over the past two weeks about the possibility of gas prices going up to $3.00 per gal. over the summer. Last year this was not advantageous to many resort owners since a lot of fisherman were not gassing up the big truck to hall the boats or gassing up their boat with the high gas prices.

This just seems to me like a the big oil barons screwing the little man. What happened to the investigations into the high prices over last summer? The reports came back, "inconclusive". So, what does this mean? Does this mean that until people stand up and let the big companies know we have had enough of them making record breaking profits each quarter, we will sit idly by and let it happen each summer?

I know for myself, last years fishing trips were cut short with the high price of gas. I'm hoping to get back on the lakes this year, but with higher gas prices, I'm not sure I can afford to do this?

[Fuzzy]

Remember the Golden Rule? They who have the gold make the rules.

[Don]

I may be wrong but I thought they were talking about the Chicago area. Due to a refinement plant closing there doors.

[cisco]

But I keep on reading here that "You get what you pay for." Well, $3 per gallon gas must be a lot better.

[So,]

Time to take to the streets and protest. Start dumping gas and flaming it. Dont buy any gas, for a week. Go to the state capitals and riot. Why not, you see how well it has worked in the past.(just in case, the preceeding was sarcasm. For those of you with a publik skool edjucashon, preceeding means, I's just funnin!) The real answer is simple. Don't post here, call email and write every senator and congresman in your district. Do the same for the Governor. I tell you right here and now, NO ONE in office right now has my vote! Period! If gas goes up that high, I will vote for Mickey Mouse before I vote for any of these jacka$$es in office now.

[Ric]

That was Loomis's not gas:)

[Box]

I am currently working out of my home after commuting 100 miles per day for the last 6 years. It is amazing how I now find the $20 bills remain in my wallet for so much longer :)

I do hope that the prices come down. But there are other ways of saving a bit - spend more time trolling or drifting, go to lakes closer to home (I have 2 good lakes within .5 miles of my house, so I guess that is easy for me to say), or just don't hit WOT as much. And drive the tow vehicle under 70mph... takes a bit longer but it all adds up.

...now, I will be going fast just as much as if prices are low :) so it's easy to say "conserve" but harder to practice it. One real easy way, tho, is to find one extra fishing partner to help share the costs. While the boat may be a bit more crowded, it is fun to share the fishing with more people.

I want prices as low as the next guy, but it is true (from what I understand) that Americans still have way lower prices than most parts of the world. Maybe we are just catching up...??...

Box
MN
(V-8 truck, thirsty motorcycle and 150hp outboard, so I go thru tons of gas...)

[Frank from TBay]

$3.00 gas in a number of years will be the good old days. Gas in Europe is already over $4.50US. We are not far behind.

[cmb]

a fact I learned in my Environmental Studies courses is that many products are grossly underpriced when you consider their real costs. gasoline is a bargin in the US as are all fossil enregy sources. if the price we payed for gas included factors for the polution created by burning it, refining it, and mining it, we would pay a much higher per gallon price.

please don't assult me with those nasty "tree hugger" insults, although I do consider my self a conservationist. I just wanted to offer a diferent view.

Perhaps rising fuel costs could actually be a good thing.
-we may consiously try to consume less fuel and prolong the amount of time this non-renewable resource can last.
-we may reduce the polution derived from burning it as a result of using less
-we may slow down urban sprawl (who wants to commute hundreds of miles a week with high fuel prices)
-we may increase our efforts to produce more efficient engines and use of alternate fuels
-we may actualy improve water quality and, as a result, be able to catch healthier and less poluted fish!

or maby we will all just grump wine and pout while we look, point fingers, and hope someone can give us a strait answer as to why (of course it won't be the answer we want, so we will pout and wine some more and wait for someone else to come up with the answer we want to hear)

[cmb]

by the way, I drive a small V6 truck(couldn't afford an f-150), commute 80 miles a day + 100-500 miles of work driving, and don't own a boat becuase I am recently maried and have other things(like buying a house and getting rid of my @#%$ student loans)higher on the financial priority list. I hate paying high prices at the pumps, but we actualy do have a bargin.

[olfs]

The thing that could be bad about this is that our economey has been partly based on these low gas prices, (gas hog vehicles, boats that pull 1 G, and so on.) Prices at 3.00 could really put a hurt everything from car sales to tourism and travel, esp. with our media waiting to jump on doom & gloom and people ready to eat it up, evan when prices were slightly over $2.00.

[Fritz]

PLEASE GOD, NOooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm getting my new boat with a 225hp. on saturday. I have no money left for gas. I say we all get a shovel and stand shoulder to shoulder at one end of oil producing, turbin wearing, sand country, and start digging and goin forward until all the oil is dicovered and stock piled for walleye boat gas. Also, please save a little gas for my wifes car, as she will need to go to work. I hope she doesn't see this.

[M1 Abrams]

A little better than shovels.

[cmb]

sad but true, the media has an ungodly great influence. To make it worse, they all want to play on the shock factor by playing up the facts and generating scary attention grabbing headlines and lead stories. free press is a good thing but,...

it is too bad that most people don't or can't criticaly analize what they read, watch, or hear before they react and make rash decisions. We are all guilty of doing this fron time to time, but in a more perfect world, the media wouldn't have such a dominant influance on our economy and overall lives.

[Phil T.]

Just think about all the money you would have saved (and continued to save) if you had bought a simple 20' Lund Alaskan with a 4-stroke 90hp engine!

[steve(IL)]

You can thank - in large part - our gov't and EPA for adding regulations w/o offsetting appropriate tax credits to allow refiners to upgrade existing plants to meet todays strict standards. Many key midwestern refineries have shut down in the last ten years alone. Our remaining Gulf and Midwestern refineries have a finite capacity. The custom blend required by law here in Chicago is a pain in the neck for them to make and transport. All the corn/alternative fuel additives only add to the cost. :-)

[TRyan]

That's what I like about my 4 stoke, very easy on gas, but I still need to get to the lake. Maybe I can tell the wife I need to stay for a week and not the 4 day's because onece I am there it doesn't cost anything! See how well that goes over!
TR

[What if?]

What if I didn't want that boat and motor? Guess what I DIDN'T!! I didn't want a rig such as you list, I wanted the american dream, bigger better and faster! I bought what I wanted just as you bought what you wanted. As to the 3 bucks a gallon, bull pooky!! If we could get crude at a fair price gas would still be 1 dollar a gallon. And the h#ll with Europe! If they are happy with 4 .50 a gallon, they are as stupid as their cars look! How come no one is griping about OPEC slowing production just to keep prices high? How come no one is griping about all the gas and oil reserves we have right here in the US that we cannot go after thanks tothe worry about the nature preserves nearby? Does anyone know how much cleaner the drilling/extraction process is now? Do you know the chance of another Exxon Valdez disaster is much lower if we are piping our own crude through a pipeline? Get real, and keep focused on ther issue, Greedy sons of Camel Sheiks, and an even greedyer EPA and US Govt.

[smiley]

I bet after reading this post, Jeremy will be REALLY glad that he quit smoking. He can use that money for gasoline!!!
(keep up the good work Jeremy)
Lisa

[Bob G2]

Those are the nice things that can happen. Then, with vastly increased energy costs, we can see (media or not)
-Increased price for consumer goods.
-Increased inflation
-Decreased consumer spending (gotta pay for that gas, you know)
-Decreased or negative economic growth
-Increased unemployment

So nice of the OPEC cartels and oil companies to be launching this again at us. Loading this on top of our economy being on the brink of recession should send this over the top.

[jerry]

The question is: Who is screwing who? Is it the oil barons, the government with their taxes, or the middle man/supplier? First of all, I doubt, and I hope I'm right, that gas will hit above $2.00 gallon nationally. Figure this: The Bush family, being oil men, would lose any credibility they have if that happened. I think GWB will be doing anything he can to make sure prices stay at a manageable rate. Now if in 2-3 years his presidency is going to pot and he knows he's a one hit wonder, then figure he'll do what he can to take the money and run. But, I don't see it happening this year. Keep your fingers crossed.

[Westy]

I wish I would have contacted the guy who turned in the $650,000 that fell from the armored car a little earlier....

[River_eye]

You are very right my friend. The price we pay for gas in North America doesn't come close to paying for the environmental damage caused by burning it.

It will eventually get so high that people will choose alternate transportation, so if people are *****ing now, just wait a few years.

River eye

[River_eye]

If you are so knowledgable about the situation, what are you doing to help the problem?

The real problem is the American dream, it's just not environmentally friendly. So if Americans keep on not caring, the only thing that can be done is to make it too expensive to pollute.

I can't wait to see people like you driving a GEO.

River eye

[Jack G]

Gasoline prices going up, Natural gas prices going up and electricity prices in California probably are an omen of things to come.

People in this country usually do not get excited about something until it starts to look like a disaster.

I personally keep my eye on about six gas stations in my area. I always try to buy at the one with the cheapest price. I am not talking cut rate, questionable quality stations. I also will not purchase anything else from these stations except gasoline. These places do not offer soda, coffee, milk, snacks, etc because they want to help you out, they do it because it is profitable.

Most of the men I know think it is petty to search out gasoline for a cent to two less per gallon. I feel that it is a responsible way to act if you feel that you are getting hosed at the pump.

Just wait until big business has a firm enough grasp on the farming operations and watch what happens.

[Al]

SOmewhere in all these posts, someone mentioned that this is in Chicago, and a factor is a closing refinery. That is true. Premcor is closing, or closed the Blue Island , ILL refinery. It is the same old song that our country has been singing for the last decade and a half. The environmentalist grasp has gotten out of hand in some aspects. Nationwide our refineries are operating at over 95% capacity. Take one out, like Blue Island, even though it is small, and you take more "supply" out of the chain. Prices go up. This is just the begining. Blue Island is a sub 100K barrel per day refinery. There are several others in the same region. Sub 100K /day refineries cannot operate in todays enveironmental law laiden market. They can't be profitible because they can't do enough volume to cover the expense of the environmental equipment and monitoring. Detroit and Canton OH have similar sized refineries. Economics dictate that they will probably follow suit. Suddenly you've lost over 200K bbl/day capacity in an already bad situation. What do you think will happen? And there is another in Hartford, ILL that is small. By this time next year, you could be looking at a capacity loss in the market of over 250-300K bbls/day.

No standalone refinery has been built in the US in over 20 years. Capacity is shrinking due to environmental law strangleholds. Something needs to be done. As a hunter and fisherman, I am all for conservation and the environment. But this has gotten out of hand. I always said, that environmental exremists have good hearts, but there head is up their.....

Try getting a permit to build a refinery anywhere in the US today. You'd have a better chance of winning the PWT points championship from shore than you would getting that permit.

[Surgen]

The oil companies have produced the effect they were looking for. Their profits and share prices are up. They are, in fact, producing record profits. The overvalued dot-com stocks have tanked and so people are looking to invest in companies that produce something and big oil looks good. Profit isn't a bad word until it is at the cost of an entire economy. The bottom line is that the economic slow-down is due almost entirely to higher energy costs. Demand is at an all-time high and the supply has been artificially reduced. The bad news is that we're at their mercy. Jack, I agree that it really hits the fan when all the food production is controlled by a few companies. That is on the way. For those of you who think the Europeans are paying $4.50 for gas, think again. They're paying $1.25 and $3.75 in fuel taxes. Sure, necessity is the mother of invention, but this "shortage" is nothing but greed.

[Someday]

I will NEVER drive anything like that

[A Grade A Bucket of BS]

Phooey! America is the most environmentally aware country on the planet. Everything is ruled by the iron hand of Uncle Liberal Sam and his Gestapo, the EPA. I am all for clean air and water, I am also a sportsman. But when you are so bamboozled about where the real problem lies, you are then part of the problem.
This energy shortage and high fuel prices are a thing of pure greed and over environmentally stupid laws. no, one, no one, NO ONE wants the foul air and water we had in the 60's and 70's, but enough is enough and the EPA has constantly overstepped it's bounds. Take the current mess in California. The state caved to the eco nazis there and would not allow any power plants to be built in the last ten years. Also the state froze utilities rates, thus not allowing the power co to raise their rates. The power companies had to buy the power needed from out of state, and ever increasing rates. Now the power companies are not taking in enough money to both run their plants and purchase power needed. All this time the population numbers in California have exploded. So now the benevolent State run by a bunch of foaming at the mouth eco terrorists, is going to "Step in" and "Save the power companies. Nothing like lighting a building on fire then dashing in to save the occupants and claim to be a hero.

[You also forgot to add]

The EPA themselves, commisioned a study to monitor the effects/benefits of the special blend Douche water Chicago and Milwaukee are forced to use. Their study, their hand picked scientists. Even they concluded there is NO BENEFIT to using the reformulated fuel. No benefit to anyone but the gas stations and fuel middle men and refineries, as you get about 10%less fuel economy so therefore you have to burn more of the wonder water crap in your engines. So, they charge more for the fuel, demand is high and the refineries can't meet the demand, so they charge even more. You get worse fuel economy than if you pi$$ed in your tank, and you have to buy more, which creates more demand, and on, and on, and on!

[Bayside]

Fear not George W. is trying to convince congress to open up our national parks for oil and natural gas exploration!! No B.S. check out c-span.

[GullGuide]

Fact of the matter is, the oil companies have us by the B***s!!! Gas is like water for a lot of us, can't live without it. We sit here and complain, but think of the truckers who depend on low fuel prices to make a living. I guess I'll pay what it takes to fill my boat and truck, even if I don't like it. Just one or two less trips a year.
>"////=<

[ranger1]

I'm really glad to see all of the replies and opinions on this subject. Now that most of us agree, what can be done? I know many people say nothing, but that is a sad situation then when we all roll over and play dead as the EPA, Government, and Oil barons make the profits at out expense. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind paying a fair price, but that is just it, "A FAIR PRICE". Sportsman and women are not a small group of individuals and since there is strength in numbers, what can we do? I really don't think a one-day gas strike will cure this, but will everyone writing their congressman or woman produce results?

[Tim FRick]

Time to convert that sailboat into a trolling machine!! We usually troll with the wind to are backs anyways. Plus now will look forward to those windy days! Or we can fit the top side of the boat with solar panels and go eletric! Those walleyes will never see or hear us coming! No more spooking the fish!!
Good Luck!!
Tim FRick

Only 32 more days till SPRING!!!

[AquaMan]

Your insight shows wisdom beyond your years...

When I was in college many moons ago, I took a class on energy and technology. For the final, we were given an assignment to create an alternative energy and prove its applications.

Our group created an electrolysis machine that created Oxygen and Hydrogen from water using positive and negative terminals. Since Hydrogen combusts and Oxygen supports combustion, the two gases were collected in separate containers then reintroduced into a combustion chamber and ignited with a spark plug. Our "engine" was very rudimentary, but it worked. The Plexiglas began to crack from the combustion as we rans it, but with a better engine, we could have made it work.

Since we were unable to get the system fully operational in the given time, we received an A-. I know some one with all the right resources could make this work. By the way, the byproduct of that combustion proccess is water which could be recaptured and used to start the process all over.

It was the closes thing to a perpetual machine.

Now, think about a boat sitting on the water with this system????

There is some food to get you garage tinkerers going through the remainder of this winter... :-)

AquaMan~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--- "It all begins and ends at the water's edge"

[chesapeake]

GWB is trying to open up one of the last pristine places we have in Alaska. I would rather pay 3 bucks a gallon than have National Parks in Alaska desecrated.

[Beaver]

I didn`t see anybody post anything about our buddies at OPEC. At their last meeting they decided to cut back production in order to drive the price of crude higher. You can bet if we controlled the worlds oil supply here in America we`d be doing the same thing. I guess they`re not rich enough. But when they`re getting threatened by other people in the region who are the first ones that they turn to for help? They control the oil and the price of it.

[dave]

Gas prices in the US are low.Come to Canada,we are alreay at 3 bucks a gallon.

The massive layoffs at the big 3 are directly caused by high gas prices.Nobody wants to go anywhere.To fill my truck & boat is over $150.00.It's time for a new fuel.

[IaCraig]

But Marilyn Chambers told me that electrolysis was a hair removal system used by electrologists????

If your looking for me I'll be "behind the green door"....
IaCraig ;-)

[It's up to you....]

So what??? I'm not going to walk, I'll pay what it takes to do the things that are important to me.

The Facts.......... There are many renewable resources that can be used in place of fossil fuels. Since I'm from a farming state lets take Field Corn for example. You can process it into people food & fodder, you can burn it in raw kernel form to heat your house and you can distill it into ethanol and burn it in your car. (or make soy diesel from soybeans) The only reason we don't use it more for fuel is because we already have our furnaces, cars & brains engineered for fossil fuels, even though it doesn't take much to convert gas/diesel engines to these alternatives.

My Theory......The 3 biggest reasons these alternative fuels are not used more is: 1) When crude oil is cheap, the alternative automotive fuels cost extra to manufacture. 2) There is too much BIG money in the Oil industry influencing Washington. 3)The tax dollars our government would lose. (import tax, fed exise tax, state & local sales tax, fed & state income tax of everyone who handles it etc).

My Sarcasm..... Hopefully high gas & heating oil prices will trigger enough consumer protests that the US government will actually support some of the alternative solutions before so much crude gets sucked out of the ground that the earth collapses in the void left behind.


IaCraig

[AquaMan]

Funny guy!

What is Electrolysis?

Electrolysis is an electrochemical process by which electrical energy is used to promote chemical reactions that occur at electrodes. The anode involves the oxidation process where species lose electrons which are deposited at the anode. Gaining of electrons occurs at the Cathode. An electrolytic cell is a non-spontaneous electrochemical system. The cell potential of all electrolytic cells will be less than zero which will result in a non-spontaneous system. Since delta G = - n F Ecell, a negative cell potential would make delta G positive and therefore indicative of a non-spontaneous system.
Electrolysis often involves metals that are capable of being reduced at the Cathode to metallic atoms. These atoms can then be deposited on whatever is serving as the cathode surface. This special kind of electrolysis is known as electroplating, and it is the usual process for producing jewelry that is silver, chromium, platinum, or gold plated objects. Copper plating usually involves a Copper salt that serves as an electrolyte. The electrolyte is a solution that allows electrical current to move through the solution. This is essential to any electrolytic process.
Other substances besides metals can undergo electroysis. Water can ne electrolyzed producing Hydrogen gas at the Cathode and Oxygen gas at the anode at a ratio of two volumes of Hydrogen for every one volume of Oxygen gas. Bauxite (Aluminum ore, Al2O3) can be electrolyzed to form Aluminum. Before this industrial process was worked out, Aluminum cost per pound was very high. As a result, few items were made from Aluminum which resists corrosion better than Ferrous materials. After the electrolytic industrial processing of Aluminum from Bauxite was worked out, Aluminum cost plummeted to pennies per pound. Now virtually any item can be "galvanized" with Aluminum coating. Aluminum is extremely light compared to Ferrous materials and other metals.
The electrolytic process was investigated by Michael Faraday who worked out the so called Laws of Electrolysis. Faraday discovered that "the amount of deposition on an electrode is directly proportional to the current passing through the electrolytic cell. One faraday of current (96,500 coulombs) of current will deposit one gram equivalent mass of a substance. Two faradays of current will deposit two gram equivalent masses of substance and so on. A gram equivalent mass of a substance is equal to the Formula Mass of the substance divided by the number of moles of electrons passing through a cell. For example, if Cu+2 ion is reduced at a Cathode according to the following half reaction:
Cu+2 + 2e- ------> Cu
Then the gram eq. mass of Cu is:
Atomic mass of Cu / 2 = 31.75 grams/ eq. mass
So if one faraday of current is passed through the electrolytic half cell then 31.75 grams of Copper will be deposited. Two faradays of current will deposit two eq. masses or 2(31.75) etc. According to the Laws of Electrolysis developed by Michael Faraday:
weight deposited = (Current in amps) (time in seconds) ( Gram Eq Mass) / 96,500

Had enough?

My point is we have always had this technology. If a couple of college kids at a first rate college can come up with the basic idea, why can’t private industry? All the principles are proven and it is only a matter of formula modification and engineering.

No, we would rather maintain the current consumption of fossil fuels with an obvious outcome.

AquaMan~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--- "It all begins and ends at the water's edge"

[Fishnwiz]

Hey Fritz.......thanks for the laugh!! LOL !! :} Wiz. p.s. save a little gas for my wife!!

[BCL]

Just remember,Bush and Cheeny are owned by the OIL COMPANYS. Well indebt to them.

[charlie]

it really makes me sick to see people suggest that i should make adjustments to my lifestyle so that people at the top in the oil industry can live life to the fullest and have all the fantastic advantages that i dont have. i work a union job and make good money for what i do. i work a lot of hours to make ends meet. i commute 100 miles round trip so that i can keep my kids out of the ffffn city. they wear 2nd hand clothes and i drive a piece of ##### that saves me 20 dollars a week. and i am suppose to make adjustments to my lifestyle that's bull****!!

[charlie]

exactly right about the attack on farmers. when ADM and CARGILL,get their hands in your pockets which they will do shortly after they ruin every small farmer in the country, you will be buying your food at the rate they prescribe and you will like it!! act now go out to the country and buy your meat from a local farmer and he will treat you right. screw the middle man. and insure your future prices of beef and pork! and another thing is those ##### canadians who are screwing over our farmers by flooding our markets with pork and grain while our gov. makes a killing on them. i raise my own meat and i drive a ford festiva and still shop for the 2 cent savings on gas. i screw the big guy every chance i get and i will survive when the whole world goes to #####. shoot what i can eat and cut wood for heat and fish from the bank! fu-- the rest!

[dummie]

Me thinks it's simple to figure it out. The name of the game in almost every instance is "GREED". They have a reason for every increase. It's demand, envirement and so on. But the truth is it's greed. One way to solve it might be that everyone boycott a major distributor until they come down in price. Then do it to another one and so on. Eventually they might get the picture that we are not so dumb afterall. They believe we are a captive audiuence and they have us where they want us. Do they? Only if we the people allow it.

[fisheyes]

it has to stop how much money does it take to make a person wealthy or powerfull what it comes down to is soon only the powerful will beable to take there children fishing unless we get organized and put a stop to this crap.write your politicians write someone but as i see it 95%of our congress and senate is already in the hip pocket of some wealthy corp.and really dont give a #####.we as the most powerfull nation in the world are about to be brought to our knees by what we used to think as a bunch of sand dwelling goat herders, except we forgot one thing about them there goat herders, there goats pissed gold, black gold,well they knew it,we used it, we bought it,with out it we lose they win if as a country we cant gas are vehicles of war how can we defend ourselfs. i only hope that they dont start chargeing us for something we should be selling them (water) oh yea they are 1.05 for 16oz.of drinking water. when are we going to stand up and say enough is enough when we have to sneek to the waters edge not to fish but to drink,god help us all cause we need it

[MUSIC MAN]

I THINK THAT DUMMIE HIT RIGHT ON THE HEAD. THEY GOTS US RIGHT BY THE BALLS. REMENBER THAT MR. BUSH AND MR. CHANEY ARE BOTH OIL MEN . FAX MR CHANEY OWNS A OIL COMPANY .WE HAVE NOT SEEN THE END OF OIL PRIZES. WE NEED TO ALL PARK ARE BOATS AND TRUCKS AND STICK TOGETHER AND HURT THEM FOR A CHANGE.BUT THIS IS THE GREAT USA, WE BUY CARS FROM OTHER COUNTRYS AND PUT ARE PEOPLE OUT OF WORK.WE NEED TRUCKERS TO PARK THEIR RIGS AND SLOW THE ECONOMY. THEY RAISE THE INTEREST THAN RAISE THEM AGAIN AND THE COUNTRY IS STILL GOING STRONG, SO WHAT DOES MR GREENSPAN DO HE LOWERS INTEREST RATES THAN LOWERS THEM AGAIN .DOES HE REALLY KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING . LOWER THE RATES SO WE ALL CAN AFFORD TO GO OUT AND BUY A NICE WALLEYE BOAT AND RAISE THE PRICE OF GAS SO WE CAN PARK THEM IN THE DRIVE WAY . GO FIGURE

[River_eye]

Too bad it isn't the answer to all our problems, although people have known about it for a long long time. I'm not saying that Hydrogen won't ever be used for transportation one day, just saying, we have a lot more to deal with before that.

When you say you created it, don't you mean that you reproduced somone elses discovery?

River eye

[jim c]

I have the answerand its simple.You all have lost that pioner sprit that made this country great. You must look at the BIG picture.Corn now sells for about 2$ bussel,weighs 56 lbs. you can make about 2.5 galons of alchol for $2 Alchol is not hard to make,really, .99 cents is a realistic number per gallon. By the way alchol is selling for 4 bucks now and I believe this is artifical to protect gas prices. After making the fuel you have 90 lbs of wet high protien feel for cattel( check the price of brewers grain feed supplement. Gas engines will run on alchol (look at the fuel dragsters etc.) although some eng modifications make it more efficent vs. gas engs. You will get the same gas milage as gas. much less pollution mayby keep the poor farmer in bussines that he loves and you could do it in your backyard. ps it is also possible to to 2x or3x the mpg by running a carb at 180 degrees to 100% volatize fuel. I dont know how alchy runs through fuel injection but i would like to experriment on that one. sorry for the long post....jim c,..

[jim c]

the electricty used to split hy an ox was made by coal fired generator,big polluter&you never get back more than you put in..

[jim c]

aluminum is usually processed near a giant hydroelectric plant that produces very cheap juce, which does not transport well over long distances. To use hy and ox for fuel is ok,but very explosive,difficult to contain & the last time i looked we are not very good at producing elect(see california)

[jim c]

finally someone making sense,doing something about the prob,thinking independently, renewalble fuels for heat at least.how about that fire to heat your house ,used to power a generator to produce your elect. and keep all the heat in your house. Do you know what the gen co.s do with that heat,they dump it in cooling towers or heat up rivers with it.This is insane!!!!! thanks jim c.

[jim c]

I am already collecting the equiptment I will need. 1000 gal storage tank check,couple car radiators check,copper tubing check corn check,,,OK Iam ready

[Eastshore]

What about these old reasonably priced cars and convrting to that vegtable oil, could that be feasable?, or only for people with direct access to Mac& Dons?.

[cisco]

Didn't you see the exec orders issued by Dubya this weekend? Get this -- he says he wants to remove the Administration's "pro-labor bias."

But at least he could try his daddy's war material -- and on the same targets, too.

[charlie]

and so you cant wait for the price of gasoline to go so high that we start to use corn! are you blind? who do you think is stopping that from happening? and if it ever does happen who do you think will let it? ADM,CARGILL. everybody talks about making adjustments to their lifestyles, god dont make me sick. yup shame on all of you for abusing the earth,get real. do you think the top 100 people at exxon or standard oil are making adjustments? we go up north for the weekend like they fly back and forth to ffffn paris and #####. im so ##### sick of the separation of classes.... G R E E D. when it all goes south i cant wait to see the rich trying to figure out how to live.

[River_eye]

You are right in saying that The US is one of the most environmentally aware countries in the world, although it is definately not the most. The problem is, being environmentally aware doesn't mean that you are being environmentally friendly. It just means that you are somwhat aware of all the damage you are doing.

Let me ask you this, how many bags of garbage do you throw out a week? How many engines do you own? Do you compost or recycle? Do you look for organically grown vegetables?

It is a fact that people in the US use the most amount of natural resources per person than any other country in the world, but I guess you are aware of that, right?

River eye

[River_eye]

Sure, cars will run on alcohol, but not nearly as many as run on gas today. The farm land to create ethanol simply isn't there. It's there, but it's already being used to produce food, somthing that will be in short supply when the earths population reaches 10 billion.

River eye

[River_eye]

Even when that's all you can afford?

River eye

[River_eye]

You are forgetting to convert currencies and measurements, a US gallon is smaller than ours, and our money isn't worth as much.

River eye

[Texas Ranger]

We put an oil man in the White House, what did you expect?

Heck, if the environment and economy survive the next four years, maybe fishing won't take too much food out of your kid's mouths.

[jim c]

all car can run on alcohol, and do so very nicely in Brazile,using surgum as energy sorce .U.S. energy sorce is corn in the food chain as FAT which we dont need much of,alcohol collects energy(fat) for fuel leaving higher protien biproduct brewers grains .protien=food ,fat= not food .farmers now cannot make a living at current prices,going out of buisness everyday

[jim c]

Being aware is a start. I throw out no garbage,compost all organics,& recycle everything.I grow all my vegatables(not necessarly organic) can garden surplus ( Ihave a recipe for homade sasta that will knock your socks off that my kids eat by the quart jar at a time with popcorn) and give sweet corn to neighbors and friends for free when i have excess I have close to 10 engines,rebuilt 1/2 of them myself(see my post on alcohol) The place where i live is better off because of me and will do even better in the future

[jim c]

the price of gas is already so highto use corn(alcohol) ever hear of re-formulated gas ?thats gas and alcohol mixed together that you by at gas prices . There hahahaha all the way to the bank on that one.growing corn does not abuse the earth in fact it helps many things 1. reduce air polution 2 feed for wildlive, 3 conserve soil 4retain water in soil. in combination with a logical program of land management is very beneficial to all.. jim c.

[FlyBoy]

When you get that tax break, I bet you won't mail it back to that oil man.

-John

[cmb]

Interesting! I have been curious about the feasability of a propane powered outboard. Propane ganerators are quite commonly used on desil RV's and it is often used to fuel tow-motors and fork lifts, why not a small outboard? not quite as radical or ingenious as your creation, but something I have been tossing around in my head. Now, if only I had the time, an old motor, and a 14' john boat.....

[cmb]

I was glad to see that my flex-fuel FORD Ranger gould run on E-85 (85% ethonol 15% gas). Unfortunatly, in three years I have never seen it for sale. When I got my first ffv ranger in 99 I searched the net to find any stations selling the stuff. The closest I could locate a reytail source was in Indy. 6+ hrs away!
If I couyld find a locay source I would gladly pay a slight premium to run this fuel.

[Buckeye]

Jim you forgot another benefit....how about an American farmer making a decent living for the first time in 30 years? Will post more at the bottom.

[Texas Ranger]

You're right about that. I figure that tax break oughtta be just enough to buy me 3/4 of a tank of gas for my truck. Wait! Doesn't that mean that my tax break DOES go back to an oil man?

[dummie]

In my post on Feb.17th I am not suggesting any one go without. You still have to go to work, you can fish, or whatever you want to do and you'll still pay high gas prices. But BOYCOTT a major distributor or two. They have to come down in price or go out of business. When they do, buy from their stations and boycott others. There are enough stations in this country that everyone can get enough fuel for their needs. The only leverage we have is to boycott some. As to propane usage for gas , it is now 1.65 a gallon. Thats what I have to use for heating fuel. My wife and I shut down part of the house that doesn,t need heated and burn wood and kerosene. Kerosene is high, but with part of the house shut down we use less than $2.00 a day and are warm.

[Buckeye]

Ok I have read through most of this entire thread and saw a few references pointed at the number of refineries online, a few promoting the use of ethanol as an alternative fuel, one about use of propane (by the way propane is made from oil and is at $1.70/gal around here right now), one mention of soy diesel, one unbelievable reference toward ADM and Cargill and food prices set high by them, and a ton of complaints about "big oil" and their evil tendency to make a profit.

I will make this as short as I can......

I am a real life professional farmer that makes his entire living from farming. I have a lot of opinions on what the solutions but let's talk about my opinions on the causes. I buy close to 12,000 gal of diesel a year both road use and off road. Only difference is the dye in the off road fuel and the tax that is attached to the road use to the tune of $.45/gal. I also grow vegetable transplants in greenhouses for myself and others and heat with natural gas and propane. I am looking at around double my fuel costs per acre over last year and triple the heating fuel in the greenhouse so I have a vested intrest in what the price of oil and natural gas is.

I think cause of the fuel crunch has been the lack of any fuel policy in combination with over zealous regulation by EPA and other govt. agencies over the past 8 years. Simple economics folks.....when upgrade compliance to new regulation make it unprofitable to run a refinery, the oil company has no choice but to shut it down. They are after all....and contrary to the envious beliefs of lots of people.....in business for the same reason I or any other business is. TO MAKE A PROFIT. With fewer refineries running at full capacity to keep up with demand and relying so heavily on foreign crude have made it easy for the OPEC nations to get higher prices due to the basic supply and demand principle.

There are lots of alternative fuels out there but there is also lots of crude underground that has been deemed off limits because they happen to lie under pristine wilderness areas. I am not proposing destruction of these areas but you can't tell me there is no way to get to that oil with minmum impact. I don't think we are talking about clear cutting hundreds of sq. miles of forest. The same people who oppose disturbing these areas for oil exploration appear to have no problem with the alarming rate at which their houses and industry are encroaching on the precious farmable ground in their own backyards. Does anyone think about how that dirt has to feed them and the next generations of their offspring until the end of time? Just like fossil fuels...they don't make dirt anymore.

Regulation is needed to keep things in balance but overegulation is killing U.S. agriculture. EPA has registered the label for only a couple of herbicies that we can use on Roundup Ready genetics. This keeps the price for an application up because of the lack of competition. In Brazil, Argentina, China, etc. there are 30 or more formulations of the same chemical available. They pay in the neighborhood of 20% of our costs for the same thing. Open that door for the U.S. farmer to produce corn for ethanol production or soybeans cheaper for soy diesel and you will have viable alternatives for oil based fuel. This will create less demand for oil and theoretically bring the price of a bbl down. Yes we still have to feed not just the U.S. but most of the world too but remember folks.....here in the State's we are enjoying the safest, cheapest (by far) source of food anywhere in the world.

We as a culture have prioritized our recreation and entertainment spending. More power to the guy who is taking delivery of the new boat with the 225hp motor. He seems to realize he is not going to get away cheap to operate it and guys like him will make the economy go. All of us want cheap food, cheap gas, cheap clothes, but don't think twice about buying a new boat, GPS, kicker motor, latest line counters, hottest baits, Aqua views, and a computer to talk about how to use all of it with other people on the internet. Someone made a comment about Greenspan not knowing what he is doing????? What cave have you been in for the last 10 years? Heck I am farming in an age where our costs keep going up and the price of our commodity keeps dropping year after year and I knew the rest of the economy has been booming at an unheard of rate.

I could get into plenty more but my fingers are tired and I have work to do. Keep speaking your minds!

[sib]

well said buckeye!

"go outside and play"
sib

[River_eye]

That's great! The world needs more people like you, the only problem is that this type of lifestyle is slow to catch on, way to slow.

River eye

[River_eye]

I don't debate that Alcohol is a viable fuel source for cars. The problem is that the cropland that it takes to produce ethanol could be producing a lot of food.

Sure, we don't need the extra food, but there are so many people in poor countries that could use it, and the dillemma is that in the future, we will have to decide whether to use the land to feed starving people or for our own luxuries.

River eye

[Fish-on]

Ahhhhhh! Finally the voice of reason surfaces once again on Walleye Central. What a great place. Let's go get the crude from the ANWR before we get stuck with another liberal in office. And BUY ETHANOL!

[jim c]

propane is an excellent fuel low in pollution,easy on engines and gets the same mpg as gas but has only 1/3 the BTUs because of the way it volatizes in a carb. All you need is a propane carb fit up to your eng. I would say that brigs and straton would have something cause they make propane generators etc. the propane companies run their trucks on it they know,talk to the propane guy when he delivers next time,,they love it and are easy to start whencold jim c.

[jim c]

Why are they starving??.. Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will never go hungry. I never though that i would have to say that to anyone on this board of all places.. jim c.

[jim c]

I had to quit farming ang get a job, just couldnt make any money farming full time. Everyone wants to leach off me but no pay for anything.Must surrvive, resistance is futile,you will be assimilated jim c.

[FlyBoy]

That would be your fault, if all the tax break means to you is 3/4 of a tank of gas. It would mean alot more to alot of people.

-John

[Ranger1]

Thanks again for all of the replies. It's good to have different points of view.

[GullGuide]

GREED...that seems to be the key word. Like it has been stated here before, they have us by the balls and they know it, so unless something is done, the prices will go up.
Does everyone know that there have been carbs invented that will give you almost 200 mpg?! The problem is, that when one of these is invented, the oil companies bay BIG bucks to the inventor for the patent just to keep em off the market. And since they are patented, it is difficult for someone else to produce a similar one without infringing on copyright laws. Not trying to get into any conspiracy theorys here, but as we all know, big oil and the automakers are in cahoots when it comes to making fuel efficiant vehicles. The technology is out there for better mpg, but until we see someone invent a carb who only cares about the environment and not their wallet, and getting an automaker to go with it, we'll be stuck in this rut.

[Pitts]

Being an employee of a local refinery I can tell you the price reflects the supply of the product. Our inventories are at an all time low for gasoline, and the propane is more profitable as propane and fuelgas for the refinery instead of nat. gas or gasoline.
I can tell you that there are millions of $ and man hours being spent right now trying to come up with an economical way to meet 2006 standards for gasoline. Most of the test runs we have been doing are hard on equipment and push the unit to the extremes on temp. There is no easy solution except spending money on new and better equipment and hiring more employees to keep there equipment in top notch condition so unexpected breakdowns that cause more pollution are reduced to a minimum.
Also getting a permit for new equipment is almost impossible if it is tied to rate increases in the units it will be affecting.
This Co has been scrutinized for there past practices on pollution control and many programs and documentation efforts and better equipment with better informed people have reduced it to a minimum.
I'm hoping that prices don't go any higher just as much as the rest of us that have trucks and boats that use a lot of it but face it in 1984 gas prices were about 1.30 a gallon at times and they have stagnated since then. The inflation rate on everything else has almost double the price of most things and for anyone thinking that gasoline will not go up is leading a sheltered life.
You can go to there website to check them out www.kochind.com if you want to be more informed or E-mail me at work pitsenbg@kochind.com and I will try to answer or forward your inqueries to the right people.

Gerald Pitsenburger
Process Lead
KPG Pine Bend MN

[AquaMan]

Since the system is all self contained, the production of the two gases is done in the vehicle in an "on-demand" basis, so storage is only kept to a minimum. Collection of those burned gases, which produce water, would then be recycled back into the water tank for re-use. The only trick is to keep the distilled water from freezing in the northern winter climates.

But like I said, with the great minds we have in this counrty, those are minor obsticles.

AquaMan~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--- "It all begins and ends at the water's edge"

[AquaMan]

No, we "created" the cycled opperation using proven technologies. To my knowledge, no one has created one since either. If you know of a system, let me know. I would like to research this further.

You see the concept is simple.

The self contained "engine" produces the gases (electrolosis), collects them in small containers and injects them into the combustion chamber on demand, burns them and recycles the byproduct of that combustion, water, back into the water tank. All the while creating the electricity to produce the gases AND propel the vehicle. Simple, eh?

The main obsticle I see is producing the gases fast enough to maintain the process. Another is water freeze in cold climates.

Come on, we put a man on the moon AND built a space station. This pales in comparison.

AquaMan~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--- "It all begins and ends at the water's edge"

[AquaMan]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-01 AT 10:57AM (CST)[p]Opps, wrong spot, sorry..........

No, we "created" the cycled opperation using proven technologies. To my knowledge, no one has created one since either. If you know of a system, let me know. I would like to research this further.

You see the concept is simple.

The self contained "engine" produces the gases (electrolosis), collects them in small containers and injects them into the combustion chamber on demand, burns them and recycles the byproduct of that combustion, water, back into the water tank. All the while creating the electricity to produce the gases AND propel the vehicle. Simple, eh?

The main obsticle I see is producing the gases fast enough to maintain the process. Another is water freeze in cold climates.

Come on, we put a man on the moon AND built a space station. This pales in comparison.

AquaMan~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--- "It all begins and ends at the water's edge"

[Al]

You need to do a bit of reading. I'm making an assumption here, but I take it from your post that you did not vote for the current administration in the last election. I hope you voted for someone other than Gore. Gore's sole family fortune lies at the hands of Occidental Petroleum. The Gore homestead land was a gift from Armand Hammer-0ccidental's original owner. Hammer made a sweetheart deal with lil Al's daddy to get this land. To this day, Lil Al receives more than 25K per year in mineral royalties. His stocks are also to the tune of 3/4 of a million in Occidental Petroleum. I could go on about how the US Naval reserves in Bakersfield ended up in Occidental's hands during the Clinton Gore years, even with the concerns of the EPA and conservation groups never being answered. I could go on with how Occidental's hammer saw to it that Lil Al, the son of a Senator from Tenn, attended the elitist St. Albins.....but it won't matter, because you'll flow with the dominant media blander telling you that GW and Cheney were the only one's involved with big oil. I feel sorry for people like you.+

Fact of the matter is, we are going nowhere unless we can get the refining capacity up in this country. Anyone know where I can get a permit to build a refinery in this country?

[Al]

Did you get that out of the Union Rag that is mailed to your house every month? In case you were asleep last year, gas prices were higher than right now. Guys like you who give the one minute glance at what is going on, then make a statement that blankets a guy who just got into office are sadly not all that uncommon. You believe what the AARP, the UAW the IBEW or what ever group tells you. People on the other side are just as bad. The problems of this mess are basic economics. WE have lower refining capacity than there has ever been in modern times. Our Naval Oil reserves were sold in a hush hush deal in BAkersfield by the last administration for a contribution from an oil company....and that was a Democratic administration. I bet you don't read that in your National Esquire articles in UAW today. Nope, you'll keep taking what they feed you. The awareness level on this board and others of economics and the business of our country is scary.

[cisco]

Ever hear of 3rd World and 4th World Countries? Third World groups are those called undeveloped, or underdeveloped -- Fourth World groups are those without development potential. The global scene is not so simple as many would have us believe.

[IaCraig]

I do expect fossil fuels to go up, but as they do I also expect technology to play a role to either greatly increase the efficiency of how we use it or eliminate our need entirely by giving us cheaper & better alternatives. Look at the unbelievable responses & creativity that this thread of $3 gasoline RUMORS has resulted in on a walleye fishing web site. just think how motivating it will be for the chemists, engineers etc.... in the world when if actually happens.


To drive my point home. If you look at electronics, more specifically computers, the price and demand resulted in competition and today you can buy a PC for < $1000 that has close to the abilities of a $1,000,000+ IBM mainframe of 1978. You can buy a color printer for $60 that outperforms a $2000 one 12 years ago.

Necessity & greed are the mother of invention, and so far low fossil fuel prices has stifled the need & profitability.


IaCraig

[AquaMan]

I guess that if a couple of college students could come up with the idea, that other more efficient groups could as well.

My question is this. With the development of these electrolysis based vehicles, why aren't they more wide spread?

Before you post the answer, visit this web site and see the obstacles they have over come. i.e.: storage, production, efficiency, etc.

http://www.globalideasbank.org/BOV/BV-396.HTML

AquaMan~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--- "It all begins and ends at the water's edge"