What would you do?

[Frank from TBay]

Buddy shared a painfull story with me today about last years Moose hunt. They were hunting late season in the snow and had a new member in the party of six who had come along for the first time. They had a Bull tag and explicit instruction that no cows be shot. This was reinforced numerous times for the benefit of the new guy.
The new guy was posted within site of Buddy in an open cut while the other four pushed the Bush.There were fresh tracks.
A big cow came out.........about 75m from Buddy. New guy fires at cow......makes solid hit in the hind quarter. Cow stops and makes perfect shot for Buddy. He looks at new guy...new guys gun is jammed. You are faced with letting a wounded animal run off and perhaps not find it to die painfully or you could put it down illegally with an easy broadside shot. What would you do? I'll tell the outcome of this story at the end of any posts.
I know this is not fishing but I know a lot of the guys and girls out there can fully understand the painfull situation.

[Juls_WI]

Put the animal down and make the new guy turn himself in, and pay the fines. He had been warned. He should take responsibility for his actions. If he had to pay the fines, you can bet he would know the difference between a bull and a cow the next time (if there is a next time) he goes hunting.

Juls

[205]

I agree with Juls 100%. The only right thing to do was put the animal out of its misery, regardless of the consequences. Better choose better who you hunt with. I have close relations who I wont go in the woods with. Russell

[smiley]

It's like you took the words out of my mouth. I second that one.
He shouldn't have been out there if he didn't know the difference.
Lisa

[jim c]

do not shoot the cow ,call a game protector report the event,if ok with him track cow & finish it off if they say no then its up to the game officals to act upon t.they are usually capable people but not always.

[Juls_WI]

Either way the new guy will be fined then. So, why not put the animal out of it's misery? Now you just have a scared, hurt, pissed off cow on your hands. Not something I would want to chase around the woods..LOL

Just my thoughts..;-)

Juls

[jim c]

do not shoot the cow ,call a game protector report the event,if ok with him track cow & finish it off if they say no then its up to the game officals to act upon t.they are usually capable people but not always.Otherwise you open the door for everyone to do this over & over . If you shoot cow expect to pay the fine also.

[Dutchman]

I came across a wounded buck while pheasant hunting and thought that I should put it out of it's misery, but my buddy advised that we call the GF&P. So we walked back to his truck and called the GF&P and they advised that if I had shot the deer I would haver been guilty of poaching and lost my hunting and fishing privilges for one year. NOT COOL!!! South Dakota law.....

[rtmg]

Shoot the guy whose gun was jammed. Tell DNR that the cow was armed & just fired back in self defense. Then tell DNR where angry momma was last seen & let them handle it. The human thing to do is not let the poor animal suffer, but Ont. laws are strange when it comes to things like this. IF you shoot animal then turn him in, who says he will own up to the shooting first ? He could claim that you shot first, then he shot next.
All depends on friendship etc. but when faced with charges, friends do & have forgotten the "whole" story.

Good Fishen
Rob

[MR.Pike]

Good Call Juls. I agree 100%. My grandfather once told me" You never know a man until you hunt with him" Now I know it's a dated phrase but,, you get the jist. It's a true statement.
You can hunt with me any time! Fishing is good too. Ha Ha




<;{{{{{<<( Mr.Pike

[Juls_WI]

Wow..ok, that's a good point! ;-)

Jim C. guess your right on that one buddy!!

Juls

[Roger Mayer]

Hi Frank!

When new guy shot and injured the cow he is now 100% responsible for this animal. I would have left and called the MNR. If some one else decided to do the humane thing...this person doesn't share the responsibility 50-50 with new guy.....they each own 100% interest in poaching.

Roger Mayer.

[Frank from TBay]

Roger you are 100% correct. I should have been a liitle more specific on Ontario law. If you put the animal down you will be charged. It is up to the judge to lay blame. Assisting or having anything to do with the animal also puts you in a poaching position. Buddy knew all of these things when faced with this situation. Fines are up to $25,000 but are usually in the $3000 range plus loss of equipment. COs in Ontario always charge and leave it up to the judge.

[Nofish]

Hey Juls,

The law is the same here in Wis. If there were Moose here! LOL.
Honestly though, if the second guy shoots the Moose, he is guilty of the same offense as the first nut. That is the way the law is written here too.

I asked a warden about a similar situation a while back with Geese. If you are allowed one goose and you fire and drop two, you just poached yourself a goose, especially if there is no one with you with another tag.

Same if you shoot at a flock of geese and nail a comorant. They frequently will fly with local flights of geese around a given lake/marsh etc. If you drop the cormorant in error, you just shot a federally protected bird and can be fined as such.

The bottom line is, dont shoot unless you are sure. And don't hunt with a nut! I can't imagine not being able to differentiate between a Bull and Cow Moose. It's not like they are too small!!

Have fun....R

[C J Hughes]

I would not call the co's.I would have who ever ask this nimrod to come along on the hunt to shoot the moose.Then they could pack it out to the base camp . I would not ever have either one of them back .If he woulod shoot a cow he can't be to safe to hunt with,I wouldn't want to drive anything for him.No matter how much orange I had on.But I would not call the co's.

[Juls_WI]

So Frank, what did buddy do? How did it end up? Was that cow let go to go wander off wounded and suffer miserably, or did they put her down? Did they call it in? Pay the fines, or just walk away?

Just curious.

Juls

[jerry]

Frank- I would have shot the new guy!! Just kidding!! I would have ended the moose's suffering, even if the law isn't on my side.

Juls- I agree with you, even if the law doesn't.

Ralph-Cormorants!! They're fish eaters!! Shoot them all!! They eat like geese too.

[FlyBoy]

I'm afraid to say, regardless of the law, I wouldn't be able to allow the animal to suffer. I take on a certain responsibility to the animals when I hunt. If part of that responsibility is I took a poor hunter into the woods with me, that is my fault not the animals. Someone will tell me how wrong I am, but I can't see myself walking away from an animal with one shot in the rump.


-John

[rdj]

original post raised a curious question. You have six guys trying to fill 1 bull tag. I'm not sure how other states game harvest laws work, but here in Montana, 5 persons of the group of 6 are already poised to break the law. A tag can only be filled by the person it has been awarded to. I'd say the whole groups hunting ethics need to be questioned before the results of the hunt can be questioned. Just a thought...

[Jeremy A]

No way should that animal have been let live with the pain it was in.

Put the animal down, the its a personal decision on calling in the law or not.

I had a buddy ground pound a peasant standing by a light pole, when he went in to pick it up he also had killed 3 more roosters and a hen or two. And yes a gamewarden was watching the whole thing...Lost his liscence for a year.

Later that year he was on a deer hunt with his wife, but not carying a gun or a liscence. he was just there. she injured a deer and was not able to kill it for some reason, he ended up taking it with a knife to stay within the law.

Granted the laws are there for a reason, but the states need to learn to make exceptions.

[AquaMan]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-01 AT 10:04AM (CST)[p]Is New Guy one of the "elders" son/daughter? Either way, I would have to take the moose and deal with the consequenses later.

Legally, Buddy cannot shot. If he does, he becomes the last fatal shot and, if caught, faces fines AS WELL as New Guy. But this is a moral delima, as well as legal one and I would sleep better after dispatching the moose and forfieting the licence then the other way around.

Honor is bigger then the law.

AquaMan~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--- "It all begins and ends at the water's edge"

["New Guy"]

No, She or He isn't "Elders" kin. Just a sportsman who doesn't have a problem with game and fish laws or following them. I suppose loading a boat up with kids to take more limits of Eyes would be viewed by some as honorable as well. Regardless of how its viewed it is still a breakdown of ethics. I apologize for having a conscience.

[wawalleye]

Folks,

know your game laws. I'm not sure how it sits in the state in question, but in the west the bag shot (ie the kill shot) is the one that bears the weight of the law. In that case, the person that actually killed the animal would be liable. The posts that said contact a conservation officer for direction is probably the best avenue here.
I've hunted for over 40 years and have not made such a 'mistake' and really can't understand how it can happen. Rule #1 Be sure of your target!

my .02 wawa

[Snowman]

I would have shot it, no question. Then I would have reported it ASAP and dealt with whatever consequences came my way. If I was arrested, fined and lost my license I'd have worn it like a badge. There are "gray areas" that occur in life from time to time and when they occur you have to use your own personal judgement. I would just as soon never hunt and fish again then knowingly leave an animal to suffer just because there may be some legal consequences in it for me.

P.S. - As for the "new guy in camp", the law would be the least of his concerns if he was standing next to me.

["New Guy"]

Grrrrrrrrr.... Your so cute when your angry !

[Mean Mike]

How much damage does a shot in the hind quarters do? is it fatal, potentially fatal, survivable, or what? Is it possible that the authorities could find the injured cow in time and heal the wound? I would need to know the answer to these questions before i could make the decision to put her down or not.

[Frank from TBay]

Party hunting is legal in Ontario. As long as the party is "in contact" any member can fill the tag. The guys hunting here were all ethical experienced hunters.........except the new guy. He placed the entire party at risk for his stupidity. For an inexperienced hunter a large cow at close range with its ears straight up can appear to be a small spike bull for those of you who do not hunt moose. Now the end of the saga.
Buddy shot the Moose. It dropped on the spot. "New Guy" now told the rest of his story. Apparently one of his friends had a tag for a cow and asked him to fill it. He had no consideration for the risk he placed the party in. He had a hidden agenda. Buddy and the reminder of the group loaded up and left the new guy with his vehicle to fend for himself. Apparently he went back to town got his partner and loaded up the moose. Nothing was said to OMNR because of the policy of "tell it to the judge". The earlier post about you never know a man till you hunt with him is a very true statement.

[AquaMan]

What I am saying is that the right thing to do is to finish the Moose off and turn in the "New Guy"

That is the HONORABLE thing to do after the New Guy shot and wonded the animal.

But, if it was your son or daughter, how would you deal with it in the event is was a mistaken shot by that youth? Would you take the fall or let your kid take the fall. Either way, someone needs to fess up. Leaving the Moose is a waste of game.

AquaMan~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--- "It all begins and ends at the water's edge"

[MR.Pike]

My grandpa was always wise beyond his years! It really does make you wonder if they should let some people breed?? Nice "friend". G'day




<;{{{{{<<( Mr.Pike

[AquaMan]

Moose hunters typically use a 30.06 or larger. Preferably a 300 Mag. Depending on if it was a clean, unobstructed shot that lead took soome bone with it and the Moose would more then likely die of the injury. If not, it would surely place that animal into the wolf bait slot!

AquaMan~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--- "It all begins and ends at the water's edge"

[ddt]

If your any kind of MAN WOMAN PERSON you
have no CHOICE you put it down. Chips fall
where they may==== ddt

[ddt]

Sorry, I thought we were thinking of the
Moose// Not the right or wrong of the law,
I would hope good buddy would step up,
no matter who shoot last.ddt

[IaCraig]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-01 AT 05:27PM (CST)[p] I have hunted alot, never moose but deer, elk, and about every type of fowl or varmit legal to shoot in the midwest. And I can say without a doubt that I would not have finished it off and risked the legal consequences. Sure I would have been angry at buthead and felt pitty for the moose, but unless the leg was broken and hanging dangling you can't possibly know it would have been fatal, it takes alot to kill something 800+lbs. Even if the leg was very badly broken, death would probably not be any worse for her than the natural death mother nature had in store for her in the future.

I am sure my answer is not popular. But I firmly believe that illegaly taken game is wrong for any reason. And about the only thing that would make me step over the line is helping a person whose life was in jeopardy. Such defending a person from a crazed animal or feeding a starving family.

I am suprised that on this topic I so strongly disagree with many of you who usually state opinions that parallel my own.

IaCraig

[205]

I still believe that if "Buddy" felt in his own mind that he was doing the Right thing by putting the moose down. Then it was the Right thing to do. Regardless of the consequences. I hate to see an animal suffer! I'd of made sure that the "New Guy" carried the burden. Russell

[Jesse-WI]

I agree with you. When it comes to guns and hunting, there is no greyness. In most states and Ontario, I'm fairly certain, the law see the new guy and the buddy as the same, breakers of the law. You are taking thousands of $ in fines and perhaps licence being lost.

It is to bad the moose has to suffer, but one person's kindness is another persons way to get around the law and poach. Perhaps the new guy hit exactly where he aimed, in hopes to get the rest involved so they would be forced to be humane but keep their mouths shut. As soon as the buddy fired, everyone knew that this was going to be another illegally taken game animal.

I personally have ZERO tolerance for people who break game laws. I see you and I will REPORT you, NO EXCEPTIONS. In the world we live in today, the PETA people and etc do not need any extra help. My father was extremely strict in this area.

We need the morales in this area to remain strong for future hunters.

[Buckeye]

Tough call. I have hunted big and small game for over 20 years and fully understand the emotions that accompany wounding and losing any animal or bird. It totally consumes my thoughts that day and keeps me awake at night. Non hunters will never understand why hunters feel that way but it is almost universal to all of us that go afield with a rifle, bow or shotgun. As for the moose situation my hat's off to Buddy for downing the animal knowing full well what was at risk for him. I can't honestly say what I would do in that situation but I have a pretty good hunch.

First off I am VERY picky about who hunts with me and my dogs. I know for sure they will obey the safety and ethics standards that the law and I call for. Unfortunately the guys on this moose hunt didn't quite know all there was to know about the "new guy" and he put them in a sticky situation. Fortunately it all came out OK in the end as far as the game warden knows.

How about this situation........

I had a friend hunting with me that shot a large whitetail buck that we tracked onto an anti-hunting neighbor's property. I knew by the amount and color of blood it was hit in the liver and was probably dead or dying. We went to her door and explained the situation and asked if we could go back and make sure it was dead then retrieve it. She refused and threatened to call the game protector if we did.

We then called the GP to talk to her and he showed up and asked her if HE could go with us and retrieve/finish off the deer. She still refused and demanded he arrest us if we set foot on her farm.

What would you do?

Ill tell you what we did. The GP said he had never had that happen before and was obligated to uphold the trespass laws if he or she SAW them being broken. (hint hint) We returned after dark and did a commando style tracking job and found his buck 100 yds from the lady's back door. It was still alive but too weak to reach his feet. My knife finished it off and we dragged it the long way out. Some animal rights person she was leaving a deer to die a slow death when it would have been finished quickly and humanely had she just let us track it in the first place.

Hard to explain but even though the deer was not lost I was really upset about what it had to go thru before we got to it. How many laws did we break by doing that? I was willing to take the risk but it was still against the law.

Good dialogue here.

[Frank from TBay]

Buckeye.....You can fish in my boat anytime.

[jim c]

ideal: call c/o on cell phone,recieve permission to kill cow deliver meat to soop kitchen,send credit card # to pay fine for new guy,go on with hunt ,never take new guy again jim c.

[Roger Mayer]

Well Frank......

All I can say is that I would have been upset.

#1 Still risked my hunting by shooting the cow for his other Friend.

#2 Did you guys have any prospects for Bulls at this area you were hunting? If ya did, new guy shooting that cow blew the chance of getting a bull any time soon.

[wawalleye]

DDT ( and others who feel the same way)

such a passionate topic! after some thinking I believe you're right! I'll retract my statement, even if others won't. My option here would be to go to the shooter, give him my rifle, and allow him to put the wounded cow down. I won't retract any statement about the breaking of a law however. If he won't turn himself in voluntarily, I'll do it for him. The chips will then fall where they belong.

wawalleye

[Real Life]

Game warden seizes all equipment including vehicles pending trial, all party members charged pending trial, moose is seized and given to needy (good thing), for guys who are bonded as a requirement of their job possible loss of job.

[Pardner]

First off, I'd get up and go kick that idiots butt until he couldn't walk. Then, I shoot the cow dead. Then, I'd build a travois and drag them bothh to the nearest ranger and turn them both in.

Take care Pardner.

[CI_Guy]

Please don't call him a sportsman. He's a poacher who knows nothing about sportsmanship. Pat K

[IaCraig]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-01 AT 07:31PM (CST)[p]Buckeye,

I ditto your commitment to retrieving lost game. Many times while the geese where flying at the peak I missed out on the main evening flights to retrieve a wingbroke cripple. Also I passed up on nice bucks that are just out of my comfortable bow range.

Also, I disagree with the lady who did not let you retrieve your deer. But Yellowstone Park is the same way because of too many people claiming to be retrieving game, only to shoot healthy ones once they got inside.

Once again, other peoples' dishonesty has burned our bridges in front of us.

IaCraig

[Nofish]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-01 AT 10:56PM (CST)[p]Hey Jerry,

Ha ha ha ha ha! No matter what you feel about Comorants, I'd be the guy to plug one when america's stupidest hunters was filming me do it!!! :P

Besides, I don't want to eat one of those big ugly fish eaters, so I wouldn't shoot one!

Reminds me of a Joke:

Bubba goes over to Bo's house on evening. Bubba says to Bo, "What Y'all a havin for dinner there Bo?"

Bo says, "I got me some Poached Goose."

Bubba says, "Is that like a poached egg?"

Bo says, "Don't rightly know. I aint never shot me an Egg, out of season."

Have fun........R