Rod Sensitivity.

[REW]

I am looking for testing information.
Several of us got together the other evening, and we had a collection of over 50 rods. All types - bait casters, spinning rods, light action (noodle rods -- to musky rods)

We had rod manufacturers from G. Loomis GLX -- to $10 Wall Mart specials.

We tried many different test methods to ascertain rod -- sensitivity - and then compare our testing results - to "real on the water fishing experience" that we had experienced with these rods.

We did such things as the "rod in the vocal cord", sliding the tip across a piece of carpet, running the rod tip across various types of fabric - with different textures - etc.

The method that we finally came to find very repeatable was the use of a Honeywell air cleaner. In my work shop, I just happened to have one of the round Honeywell air cleaner running on low speed. I keep one of these on - particularly when I am building rods - to pull out any cork or other dust out of the air -- (very effective I might add).

The bottom line - is that this flat topped honeywell air cleaner running on its lowest speed -- exhibited the very slightest bit of vibration in various spots on the top of its case. By very gently letting the rod tip slide across the top of the case -- one could feel these very slight vibrations - through the tip, into the handle.

To keep all tests equal - I mounted the same spinning reel (for those models) or the smae casting reel ( for those models) prior to testing.

The results completly amazed me.

Although there were several G. Loomis rods in the test - either GLX or IMX models, and many St. Croix models in the test - none of these rods - gave the best results - as far as feeling the vibration in the handles.

The best rod - was a "many times" rebuilt - 20 year old 5'8" Cabellas XML rod blank - that is no longer available.
Then, suprsingly enough -- (as far as passing the vibration test was concerned -- the rod that came in 2nd was the $10 wall mart special. Someone could have knocked me over with a feather, when I tested that rod, and found the extreme sensitivity. (with this test).

Now for the question -- We all compared our test results with our on the water experience -- and found that there wasn't very much corellation -- with fish catching results -- and tese test results.

i.e. -- none of us had ever caught any Walleyes on the $10 wallmart special -- yet a couple of the G Loomis, and St. Croix rods -- (which incidentally didn't fair too well on the vibration test) -- had caught many many walleys. Many of these G Loomis and St croix rods had caught consecutive walleyes on consecutive casts -- and the comments from the users were -- I certainly could feel the walleye hit!.

So, my question to the board is -- Is there any real good rod test ---- except for on the water experience???

The test results -- that we conducted the other night -- certainly did NOT corellate at all with on the water experience!!!

I am really wondering if there is really ANY -- off the water test that can be performed -- that will really "grade" a rod.
Certainly -- none of the 5 tests that we did -- came at all close to duplicating our on the water experience with these rods.

Take care

REW

[Dutchman]

To the best of my knowledge there is no "Golden Standard" for testing rods. Possibly, the biggest test of a rod is whether it feels comfortable to the user, and the confidence they have in getting hits, and fish to the boat with their particular choice. I don't own any high end rods because of mishaps with my family angling crew. I do purchase and own many BPS/Walleye Angler rods and they do a very good job and nobody has a coronary if one gets stepped on. Intersesting thought and test, I'll be watching the replies on this post.....Jeff

[WAeyes]

I was at a store the other day and decided to do a few sensitivity tests. There was a good selection of G-loomis rods so I grabbed a SJR 722 in a GLX, IMX, GL3 and GL2. Like you REW, I did the vocal cord test along with running the tip across several different materials. My results were very inconclusive, there was not any real differences to me as far as sensitivity goes. The biggest difference I noticed was the weight between each rod and the stiffness of the graphite. You wouldn't think that approximately a 1/4 oz difference in weight between each rod would be so noticeable, but it is, along with the rods getting stiffer as you go up in quality. If you really want to feel a weight difference, take the GLX over to a middle of the road IM6 and compare...WOW! Now if you ask me if the high end G-loomis rod is going to give you more sensitivity on the water, I dont know, I don't own any...yet! But if you want to know which rod I would rather hold on to for hours out fishing...I'll take the lightest one every time.

[Stan]

Hey REW,

You have certainly demonstrated how the "winter doldrums" affects the engineers mind! :) Interesting results...

[OBSERVATION]

Sensitivity is in the eye of the beholder. All rods including those $10 ones will catch fish. A lot of the Rods capability is in the mind of the fisherman. I compare rods to woman...That plain jane lady is someones or could be someones beauty. That $10 rod to a kid who saved his paper money is the most sesitive rod in the world. High end rods and reels are great, I own many, but that $10 one that I fished with my father with is still my most sensitive rod.

[fishguy]

Any rod will catch a walleye. Top rove my point one year I took a snoopy rod fishing one day. My friend (the loomis man) was convinced I would not catch any fish. He is the type of guy that has the best of anything. Basically he is a sucker for basic advertising! The snoopy rod outfished the loomis, I even let him fish before me (back trolling). My favorite rods are Berkely lightening rods with the cork. Good rods, good price--practicle. Remember this, Pros used what they are paid to use.

[Jack G]

In this forum, not too long ago, I questioned the necessity to purchase the high end rods described as the best for sensitivity when jigging for eyes. My opinion was, and still is, that there is probably not enough sensitivity difference between $60 - $80 rods compared to $l40 and up rods to warrant spending the additioinal money.

When jigging, my $70 rods allow me to detect the slightly heavy feeling that occurs when an eye just sucks the jig in and hangs on. No taps or yanks. I do not know how much more sensitive a rod could get.

That said, I recently said I would buy a St Croix Avid if you guys would give me an opinion on what length and action to get.
It was suggested, and REW concurred, that a 6'3" extra fast tip Avid would be a good choice. The rod arrived two days ago and I will start trying it out as soon as I get back from fishing for bass in Florida for the entire month of March.

It seems to me that the biggest difference I see in one rod to another is balance and the actual weight of the rod. The Avid I just got seems to feel very light and has a nice balance.

Later in the season I will have an opinion whether the Avid is worth the extra dollars for a jigging rod. I will just be my opinion and worth exactly what you pay for it.

God, I love this sport.

Jack G

[cisco]

OK, let's say the ultimate sensitivity of a rod is established, and I buy it. Now, how do you make my numb hands sensitive?

Next to my hands, Dubya is ultra-sensitive.

[Dubya]

You made me cry with that bashing remark. Now who is the unsensitive one?

[chadk66]

I agree totally with the sensativity of the hand thing. No two people experience the same feel of anything. Some people are naturally rigid and that effects their sensativity to things like feel on a rod. For example, watch how different people hold a steering wheel on a car, then watch how your buddies hold a rod. When I fish bottom bouncers I will only use my loomis rod. It might just be in my head but I don't feel confident with a different rod. But on the other hand, while pitchin jigs, I grab the kids $20 daiwa rod and man do you feel an explosion when they hit it. I guess I'm just trying to say what works for some don't for others.

[Steve(IL)]

Ron Seelhoff - All time leading money winner on the PWT circuit -
has this to say " I have great sponsors that provide me with the tools I need to perform my skills. I don't own too many fancy rods or reels. In fact, most of mine weren't expensive, and I've been using them for so long that they're like old friends. But I'd have a hard time making it in this business without my Lund boats, Mercury outboard motors, Rapala crankbaits, Stren line, and Gamakatsu hooks" (Note: this quote can be found on page 52,
righthand column, 3rd paragraph down in the Jan/Feb 2001 issue of Walleye Insider)

I use the tests REW described in evaluating the rods I buy and find them very useful. The "TWO" things I consider are flex and sensitivity. It is true that I sometimes buy a rod that I'm very excited about....only to get it out on the water and be a little or very disappointed. I submit that this could just as easily happen with a $300 rod as a $50 rod(who wants to admit - to themselves or anyone else - that their $300 rod is only marginally better than what they were using before).

I've got a garage full of rods. I've got some $35 rods I think are amazing and some $200 rods I could live without. I bought an almost $300 rod and tried it. It was very nice - not $300 nice though. It went back to the store.

Unfortunately, different methods of walleye fishing require different properties in a rod for it to perform best. Even differences in how you fish versus how I fish will require different properties. It's not about right or wrong. It's about what you like best versus what I like best. In that situation, we're both right.

If REW is right - that in store tests don't correlate at all to on the water performance - then how can we decide which rod to buy? Wouldn't we have to rely on someone else's opinion or some marketing propaganda? For me, I'll continue to trust my own judgement and make my own mistakes. Yes, I've bought a few duds, but I've learned a ##### of a lot along the way.

[steve(IL)]

Not all IM6 blanks or rods made from them are created equal. Stick a dud handle and thick finish on a loomis blank and you will impair its performance.

[Chad C]

I work at a sporting goods store in the twin cities and we have time to play with a lot of rods. We tried tieing a 2-3' piece of mono on the end eyelet of 3 different St. Croix's, a Legend Elite, Avid and a premiere.
We then had 1 guy hold the rod and the other one touch, pull and tap on the line. Doing this really showed me how much difference their is between these rods. With the legend elite you could just barely touch the line with 2 fingers and you could feel it plain as day. We couldn't feel as much with the Avid and even less with the premier.

This was done without reels and with reels and putting a reel on the rod does deaden the feel a little but their is still a difference.

After doing this I'm convinced my next rigging rod will be a
St.Croix Legend Elite.

[Dubya's Brother]

Dubya is sensitive. I started using a bobber on my rods when I started being insensitive. I pretty much use it all the time now.

[Fin Addict]

I like to have someone pull the tip of the rod while I load it up. I really pull and this gives one a good idea of how the blank is put together. Where does the flex in the blank change and where is the power in the rod. I would concur that to me weight is a huge factor. A light bite on a light rod is simply easier to feel than the same tap on a heavier one. Do I think that extra ounce will tire me out, probably not but if one adds this to a poorly chosen reel that is heavier than necessary and you fish all day, there is a difference. Consider the purpose of the rod to determine what you want to shop for. Very high modulus rods do not load up well and are not well suited for casting. All of the above will get you close to the right rod but in the end, you have to fish them to really know. I saw the St. Croix Legend Elite when they hit the stores last spring and I had to have one. Bought one and used it for an hour and took off the reel and put it back in the rod locker. The rod was dead after upsizing a jig beyond half of its rating. In my opinion, it was rated incorrectly. Excellent rod for very light jigging but not for the heavier jigs that I generally prefer. What would really be nice would be if a place like Cabellas w/ their Tanks of fish could let you actually put a rig together and try it. For jigging the high end balanks are definitely and edge. Set them up w/ the right guides and handle and they can be amazing.

[LindyRigger]

"i.e. -- none of us had ever caught any Walleyes on the $10 wallmart special -- yet a couple of the G Loomis, and St. Croix rods "

My question with your research is....Did you guys actually spend time fishing with the $10 rod and if so, was it equal fishing time. I know if I had a G Loomis I would not let it sit and fish with the Walmart special.

I have rods that I am comfortable and confident with and have caught more fish with it. My question is this...did I become comfortable/confident with the rod because I caught fish with it or did I catch fish with the rod because I was confident with it.

I enjoyed your post. Lot to think about.

LindyRigger

[Ernie]

As always, REW provides the beginning of a thought provoking, worthwhile, and interesting discussion. My observations and opinions...

The sensitivity of the rod is just one variable and decision point for me in choosing a rod. I use the 'tip drag' in the store to get a comparison to other rods. Typically, it is difficult to rate it against others I currently own because I am not that adept at remembering the feel of the rods that are at home or in the boat. Here, the 'scientific method' (with controled and comparitive testing) breaks down and I have to go with what I believe I need - much to the wife's chagrin.

The approach I have taken is creating a combination of rod, reel, and line (along with some variations in terminal tackle) for the different types of fishing that I do. Rod sensitivity and action are one consideration. Typically, a spinning combo for lighter presentations like Lindy rigs and, of course, jigging. I use baitcaster for trolling or heavy bottom bouncing (and, yes, some bass fishing, also). I have become a big fan of the no-stretch line (e.g. Fireline, PowerPro, etc.) for those situations where I need to feel that bottom and the fish. I also use mono in other situations. The switch over to no-stretch line had me move toward lighter action rods.

Currently for rods, I have quite an array of brand names (and price ranges). St. Croix Premier series has worked quite well. I also have a couple of Gander Mountain branded Guide Series - a good rod for a good price. Some of my favorite are the South Bend Elites. I suspect that everyone's fishing style and needs creates the demand for all of the different combinations.

As I have upgraded, the gear/combos that I replace have been handed down to my two sons. As they have grown out of the K-mart specials, their fishing and enjoyment of fishing has improved, also. By the way, I still have the Zebco 600 combo my father purchased for me when I was quite young. It is over 30 years old and I still get it out and clean and oil it once in a while.

[REW]

The one post about "the wallmart $10 special not catching walleyes" hit home.

Because, yes, in this comparison and with the testing -- I have never once used this rod, is an appication where I would be in a position to catch a walley. I am typically fishing for pan fish with my grand children - when this rod is used.

Again, I really like what some of the posts have had to say, and I concurr completely with the bulk of the posts.

i.e. if you are jigging, and don't have a soft or long enough rod - to keep the eyes from feeling your - get a different rod.

If you are vertically jigging, and are losing fish, because of inadequate hook sets -- get a stiffer rod.

If you are bottom bouncing - and have trouble following the contours witha spinning reel setup - go to a bait caster with an appropriate action.

Summary -
If I read the posts correctly get the following.
1. Match a rod to the applicaton.
2. Get a rod that fits your wallet.
3. Insure that the rods are balanced -- i.e. not only fore and aft as far as tip and or butt weight is concerned -- but balanced as far as the appropriate weight reel, and also the appropriat weight line. i.e. don't use 2 lb test and an ultra light reel, on a musky rod - (exagerated of course).

4. Finally - get the fishing tackle - that matches (YOU).
If you like and are comfortable with your tackle choices -- it is likely that you will learn all of the secrets of that tackle and catch lots of fish with it.

5. Finally as the song says -- Be Happy !!

Take care

REW