Thoughts on building trolling rods

[BradB]

Howdy,

I'm in the process of building two trolling rods out of St. Croix inshore blanks (G180MF). Eight foot, one piece, medium weight, fast speed.

I've always been a spinning reel guy but am thinking I ought to use baitcasters for these rods. I was thinking on either the Shimano Castaic or Curado, so I could troll cranks on Fireline for Minnesota walleyes. I'll also do some casting, but will attempt to use these mostly for trolling or bottom bouncing.

Do any of you have advice on how the guides should be set for using a baitcasting reel. Do you want more open guides or tighter guides? And is there any logic on how far the first guide should be from the reel?

I appreciate any time learned advice any of you may have.

Brad

[Fin Addict]

Go to the St. Croix web site and go to the section for blanks. Then go to guides. They lierally recommend not only the type of guides to use but also specify proper spacing for each blank.

[T. Ryan]

BradB.

I also am building the same length St. Croix rod for trolling and it's my first bait caster, I own all spining. The main reson for this rod is deeper water crank trolling with bottom bouncers.
As I am sure you have seen when making spinning rods - eye distance can vary from each make of rod - there are books that show normal spacing but I don't believe it's any thing wrote in stone. Some 6' rods use 6 eye's some use 7.
The bait caster that I am making now I got the titanium eye's so the "none mono" line that I will use ( have not picked one out so far ) will not cut into them. I was thinking of getting a real with a counter but most go by the diamiter of the line you have spooled and the fire lines are so much thiner that you would need a calculater to figure it out.
Shoot me an email I have my catalog at my desk that I get my St. Croix blanks from - I got this one for $10.00 it a second and for trolling I didn't think it would matter.

Tim

[BradB]

Thanks guys!

I checked out the St. Croix site and saw what they recommended for a couple different 8 foot rods. I noticed that for casting rods they specified guides with two feet, instead of the usual one foot guide on spinning rods.

Do you know the logic behind that? I'm thinking it's to increase strength and the fact that in trolling it is less important to reduce the weight of the rod.

Is there a book somewhere that contemplates the effect that guide spacing, and eye diameter, have on the speed of flow of different types of line?

Like you, T. Ryan, I'm planning on using baitcaster reels and using line counters to try to dial-in trolling depth. I was planning on using 6/14 Fireline with some sort of mono leader in clear water. I don't know if Mike McLelland's guide works for Fireline, or if you just use the line thickness equivalent.

Brad

[REW]

Brad,
It is interesting that you are building such a rod.
I have just finished building the same rods and had exactly the same questions.

I worked with Lonnie at Thorne Brothers - a custom rod shop in Mpls and came up with the following:
For trolling - the only logical way to go is with a bait caster.
There is really no reason to have a spinning reel on a trolling rod.

Because, I will use this rod for some possible casting situations, I made sure that I didn't make the handle so long that it would hit my elbow - if I were using it for casting.

This meant that my back grip consisted of 22 - 1/2" cork rings, I used a #17 fugi reel seat, and 9 - 1/2" cork rings on the front for the fore grip. I wanted the foregrip wide enough so that I would have cork under my entire hand, if I grasped the front of the rod.

As far as guide types - I went with the new Fuji guide type and spacing. In general, these are Fuji hardalloy guides, with a silicon carbide tip. Even using super line - fire line or spiderwire, there is no problem with guide grooving. The silicon carbide tip will take any kind of abuse that you might feed to it.

As far as double footed and single footed guides are concerned
- I as many other folks use for this style rod -- the two first guides are double footed and the balance are single footed guides. The reason for the double footed guides is for strength.

I necked down to a relatively small guide fairly quickly - as is specified for the Fuji concept guide style. This keeps the lines close to the blank and keeps things under control.

As far as guide spacing is concerned -- basically grap the tip of the rod - while some one else is holding the rod up at about 30 degrees. Lay a straight edge along the rod -- starting from the tip to the butt. You need to place the guides and have enough guides, so that -- with 3/8" off set above the rod -- that you just barely touch the rod with the straight edge. Bottom line - you need to space the guides and have enough of them -- so that even with maximum rod bend (remember - the guides are on top of the rod - not the bottom) the guides will keep the line off the rod.

For an 8 foot trolling rod - of which we are speaking - this required 9 guides.

To minimize the tip weight -- I also wrapped the two inches on the butt of the rod, with lead tape - before installing the cork rings. This added weight - that is under the cork, and under the butt cap - does a nice job of taking some of the weight off the tip - of such a long rod. Not really required for a trolling rod - but even putting out line, or handling a fish - the balance - makes the rod much more enjoyable.

Good decision - and I suspect that you will have a great rod, and catch lots of fish with it.

Take care

REW

[BradB]

REW--

Thanks! I'm actually building two of these rods and am doing both at Thorne Brothers. I was in there last night to grind down the cork rings. I don't think I used quite as many rings as you specified, certainly not for the fore grip, but I was pretty close. That's a good idea on the lead tape--too late for me now--but a darn good idea.

I'm going in next week to start with the guides. I'll print out your message and ask for Lonnie. Great advice!

Brad

[REW]

Brad,
Actually, it is not too late for the lead tape.
Simply use a razor to cut off the last 4 cork rings.
Wrap the blank with the lead tape -- keep the od of the lead tape less than - what will be the finished size of the butt cap.

I gave Lonnie a roll of lead tape last year, and perhaps he will lend you some for your rod.

Then, simply glue - 4 new rings in place, and turn down the cork for the replacement rings.

Take care and good luck.

REW

[Ken Quirk]

I just finished two rods for some friends of mine. I built them on 7' blanks but 8' would work great. I used the Roberts Wrap as the rods would be in rod holders most if not all of the time. The Roberts Wrap works great and it is truly a custom job.If you are not familar with it, it is a method of placing the guides on the rod so that the guides end up on the bottom of the blank much like a spinning rod. The first guide from the reel is in the normal position, but it is 15 degrees off center to the left of the blank. The second guide would be 90 degrees and so forth so that with 4 guides you should be under the blank. The main purpose of this is to eliminate the torquing effect, but it sure looks neat. I've even built some casting rods in this manner.
Ken Quirk

[Starfish]

Another thing you can do is epoxy a few inches of pencil lead (depending on the size of the lead, you may need two or three pieces side by side) inside the butt section of the blank. Works great, but make sure you decide on the right amount of weight before you epoxy it... :-)

[Fin Addict]

Sounds very nice! Amazing what that balance will do to the feel of a rig.

[BradB]

REW and Starfish,

Do you have any idea of the approximate weight of lead you put on your rod? I have a roll of 40% tin/60% lead rosin core that I can use for the same purpose. I'll just clip to length and put in pieces until it seems like the right amount of weight, then epoxy it in.

Thanks again everyone. This discussion has been very educational.

Brad

[KevinA]

No one has hit the reasons for large vs small guide diameter yet.

Look at a spinning reel & note how the line comes off the reel. It'll come off in a coil that has the largest diameter just as it comes off the spool and will have the smallest diameter --to no diamter at all-- when it reaches the first guide. Also note how high off the rod the first guide on a spinning rod is as compared to a baitcasting rod. The large diameter & high profile of the first guide on a spinning rod is to better handle(or process?) the coil of line that is coming at it from the spinning reel. The spinning reel is also mounted high off the rod blank..this is why the first guide has a high profile.

Compare all this to a bait casting setup...the reel is mounted very close the the rod blank and it comes off the spool straight in-line..there is no wide diameter coil to deal with. The first rod guide can then be of a small diameter and set close to the
rod blank itself.

The distance between a spinning reel & the first guide should be enough to insure the coil of line is small enough in diameter by the time it reaches the guide to flow through it without any drag. If there is drag then your cast will be shorter.

Make sure your rod blank spline is in the right place relative to your guides...spinning & baitcasting rod guide placement vary from one another by 180 degeees.

Wrap a hook keeper at the base of the rod as long as your wrapping, it's handy & easy to do.

As for how many guides to place on a rod...it's governed by how many guides will it take to insure that the line will not touch the rod blank when a heavy load is placed on the rod (i.e. a big fish). If you tape on the guides and run a piece of line through them & then stress the rod, watch if the line touches or crosses the rod...if it does, put in another guide, re-space them and stress it again.....

[Starfish]

The weight depends a lot on your blank, where the reel seat ends up, and what reel you'll be using. I've seen anything from 1/2 to 4 ounces of lead depending on the rod. What I do is leave the butt cap unglued for a week or two while I figure out which reels I'm going to use on the rod, then friction-fit some lead with tape until I decide how much weight it needs.

Don't forget, you can always use a Bass Pro Shops balancer kit if you're squeamish about permanently weighting your rod (or want to experiment a little before making it permanent.