environmental debate without the politics and name calling

[cmb]

Is it possible to have an open and honest debate about the quality/future of our environment and the possible future of our sport without the polotical nonsense, name calling, and personal attacking?

I assume that is why the post that started about our President was pulled.

[River_eye]

I think the discussion about global warming is the closest thing you'll see to a civil discussion on the matter. Also, this is somwhat of a biased group of people, so you won't ever get a real quality discussion addressing all sides of the issue.

90% of people here are male, middle age, mid to upper income level, and live in the country which consumes the most resources per person and throws out the most garbage per person out of the whole planet.

River eye

[cisco]

cmb -- I posted the two paragraphs from the Washington Post without editorial comment on my part, except for inclusion of the $$$$$. I did not expect the attack on me that resulted. The message is what's important. I guess I'd have to answer your question about whether an environmental debate could take place without the bashing and name calling in the negative. No, I do not think it possible on this board.

On one thread I made the simple observation that water does not boil at 244 degrees Fahrenheit, as the writer had indicated, and before it was over I was called an "evolutionist," and all sorts of things about which I had not said a word -- including the statement I was a "Clinton apologist" -- when in fact, this is the first time I've used that President's name, and did so only as a quote. The amazing thing to me is that some folks think they know your occupation, religion, and just about everything else by reading a few posts. Why can't folks confine themselves to the post without making the giant leaps?

[CJW]

I think its because it wasn't over evironmental issues. It was more this pres. caused this that pres. caused that. If you wish to discuss these issues, then discuss the issue without bias! I think you get slammed on here because everyone has had enough of the Presidential #### . They don't want to here about it any more. Just my opinion don't mean anything by it. CW

[Ray]

River Eye,
Who educated you about country people? Country people are some of the most resourceful group of people that walk this planet. They respect there surroundings and they protect there environment more than any other people. Listen moron, I am a country boy myself, and we recycle all our garbage and clean up after ourselves. It's you city peoples' garbage that we have to collect and store in our backyards, just so you can pollute the enviroment. Before you speak out, know what you're talking about.

[James Morris]

He meant the United States, not rural areas.
----------------------------------------
(Thinks)..."Ranger 620 DVS"...(Smiles)..

[Tough Guy]

And that is a mighty good opinion CJW. May all your stringers be heavy. Tough Guy out.

[vetspet(ind)]

cisco fails to tell the truth again....i made the post about how to keep water in my fishing ice hole open and not freeze over as i missed a bunch of fish from icing problems in my fish hut...i asked a legitimate question on fishing...i mentioned using hot water to keep the hole open...i think aquaman replied that boiling water would freeze faster...i made a comment that this concept came from science fair experiments which i had judged in the past and i made an incorrect statement that water boils at 244 degrees....at the time i was not trying to be a techno guy and realized after i typed it that this was not the accurate degree...but let it go...even admitted it was a typo...and cisco got all over me...literally he can read my mind and know this was not just a typo or oversight...questioned my knowledge on almost anything...he is a total egotist...somewhere in left field...reads ephesians..at least knows its a book somewhere in the bible...and is the greatest example i know of the type of guy who posts inflammatory letters and then says such things as "he really doesn't want to start anything...."...typical clinton tactic....i could go on and on but pearls to swine....

[Get over it]

Please quit talking about the stupid boiling water arguement you two had. It is over! Maybe you guys should exchange email addresses and whine in private.

[sib]

my conclusion is:

that human nature requires an enemy. in the absent of any real threat, we canabalize amongst ourselves. we look for the small percentage that we are different, rather than embrace the majority of issues we hold common. when we had real enemies we were a united group working for a cause, today we like to identify more with our subcultures and work for our individual cause(s).

well, that's my take.

"go outside and play"
sib

[add to that]

Liberals are almost ALWAYS wrong! Intolerant at the very least. If you dare express a contrary viewpoint, even if you back it up with facts, liberals will always brand you as a hate monger, or a racist, or a dictator.

[EAGLE EYES]

cmb, The answer to your question is no! It has never happened yet on this board or will it happen anywhere else. Whenever you have a debate the fight begins. (It's human nature.) I wish it was possible to have such a discussion as you described. This is a very bad time of year for anything political. The edges are short as the tempers of sportmen are. The Panfish are biting folks! get out there and drill a few holes! :-) EE

[Backwater Eddy]

Once again we witness the completely unbiased educated opinions shared by the anonymous profits of the web.

[Leechboy]

Kind of tell tale and ironic that we can't even have a civil discussion on whether or not we can have a civil discussion.
Yours Truly, and "fish the finest":
The tree hugging, God fearing, gun toting, Clinton apologist-
Leechboy

[Jim in Glenwood]

Question. How come nobody says a word when George W. Bush declares his support for trigger locks? If the Democrats pushed for trigger locks almost everybody on this board would start shouting that we are going to end up just like Canada?

[Backwater Eddy]

;)

YA?

Ain't it Ironic, EH?

Backwater Eddy

[Hans]

We pass the word around; we ponder how the case is put by different
people, we read the poetry; we meditate over the literature; we play
the music; we change our minds; we reach an understanding. Society
evolves this way, not by shouting each other down, but by the unique
capacity of unique, individual human beings to comprehend each other.
--Lewis Thomas, The Medusa and the Snail (1979)

[Stizostedium vitreum man]

Once again it has been proven, through some of the posts on this website, that the human species is an experiment that failed.

S.v.m

[cisco]

Look what's already happened in the few responses to your question. Even to the answer to your post we get called names and get labelled with labels.

A truth is an error which is momentarily irrefutable, and that's the truth.

[Al]

I can understand people even if they are shouting each other down. Regarding the global warming, I can't for the life of me understand why boistrous sectors of the scientific community got away with so much based on theory. Theory based upon data that is maybe 100 years old. And they got the attention of some in congress and rushed into law some ridiculous regulations. Regulations which caused you and I more money in transportation, refrigeration and AC, plastic goods, the list goes on. And all because some pointy headed types said....this is fact. It's my opinion that while some measures are good and needed, this research grant grabbing group has taken the American consumer on a wild ride...and some are still begging for more. Simply amazing.

[River_eye]

Moron? Where in my post did I state anything bad about people from rural areas? Think you misunderstood me. I was talking about the US as a country.

River eye

[Hans]

Whatever.

[LEECHBOY]

Al:
You'll have to forgive those of us not blessed with the intellect to see things as they truly are. Simply amazing, indeed!-lb

[Stump]

Hello all: Here we go again!! It sounds all to familliar!Ufda and I know this situation all to well. LOL!!!Everyone has their own opinions, be them right or wrong(if its yours its always right...HA HA!),yet if someones' is different then yours,the battle begins.Boards such as this contain a wealth of knowlege,what you choose to do with it is entirely up to you!Probably the best approach is to voice your point of view,listen to all others,compare opinions,take into fact that we are all human(well most..LOL!)then form your own thoughts based on the information gathered. Who knows,someone might put something into a different perspective you havent even thought of. Just this mans opinion!!!! Tight lines and bent poles to all,John.

[RIVERRUNNER]

NO, I don't believe we can and, the world powers like it that way.I don't know about global warming, although in my area there is a definite trend towards warmer temps.As people ,we must do what we can do in our daily lives ,to payback, for what we take.I for one, belive I can do a better job of this.However, there are alot of facters that effect the environment,laws,until big governments and big business, get truley serious about the environment, were in for it.There's enough money, resourses and people to make this happen ,but governments and big business are making lots of $$$$ . They're depleting the world of it's resourses while ,tring to disarm the world's populations ,country by country.Well that said, I,m goin down to take a test ,for my boat liscence.I've got 20 yrs on the water, hope I pass, maybe soon they'll let me buy plates.Anyway, long day at the chemical factory.Bury your guns and study for your boat driving test,good luck from environmentally friendly CANADA.Time for a nap ,god save us.

[River_eye]

Do you have anything at all to back that up? What is your knowledge on environmental science? Do you know what Chlorofluorocarbons are? Do you know what they do?

From the nature of your post, I would guess that you are relatively uneducated in this area. Am I wrong?

River eye

[River_eye]

You are right on the most part. Although, I dissagree with the major business part. If we as consumers demanded that the big corporations be environmentally friendlier, or else we wouldn't buy their products, then I think that would make a huge difference. How do we do this? I'm not quite sure.

The biggest problem is that so many of us buy a product, without considering the wastes that were produced and resources that were used in the manufacturing of the product. Makes sense, eh?

River eye(MB)

[cisco]

cmb

Do you think anyone knows what your question was?

You started fishing for walleyes, but your companions on the trip led you to bullheads and carp.

[JN]

Whose the moron????? Please stand up...Please stand up....
Unreal...

[Tracy]

Is that cheese that I smell!!!

[vetspet(ind)]

i agree...but since cisco wants to bring it up again...trying to make me out to be the guy who started the idiotic debate in the first place when it was him who started the whole sarcastic mess to begin with...now he...not me brings this up again...i just get sick of his rhetoric and acting like he is some innocent bystander when he has a real attitude problem...steve

[vetspet(ind)]

cisco...did you confine yourself to the original post about keeping my hole open in the shanty??? i don't think so...you always turn things around like that...thats why we know you are a clinton liberal voter....what did the actual temperature of boiling water have anything to do with the idea i was trying to get across...if you were honest...and i doubt that happens often...you would admit that you were upset because i made some posts supporting bush over clinton...after...bush was slam dunked first.....you also stated that you were called an evolutionist...the implication is that you do not believe in evolution?...you posted 8-10 names of gentlemen who you found listed in some reference as "scientists"...you then stated that evolution was the basic tenet of anthropology...these gentlemen are all also anthropologists....so to say you do not believe in evolution at that point would be like me saying i listen to rush limbaugh daily...enjoy his program...think he's right on...and then state that i'm a liberal....sounds like clinton to me...steve

[jim c]

I think the question was that if you fish in the same hole for 7 days in a row,does that make your whole weak????hole week,hole weak ??whatever!!

[SUPERTROLLER]

GIVE IT A REST !! If you would/could just choose to let him have his opinion and graciously ignore him and not repost and rebut every supposed slap he takes at your positions, we MIGHT be able to have a discusion here. Don't rehash old arguements. We already put up with them once. We don't need to see them again. Sometimes you have to just "walk away". My view is that you are attacking him a lot more than he does you. You come across as petty and childish even though I agree with much of what you say. If you think he's taking the low road (I do Not), why lower yourself to that level? Just let the issue die and go on the the next one. You have to realize you will not change his mind and he'll not change yours. Agree to disagree and call it even.
JUST GIVE IT A REST !! PLEASE !??!

[chrism]

CMB
to answer your original question,
the answer is NO!

Anyone want to buy a motorguide laser? Cheap!

[Mean Mike]

Yes, it is possible, just not on this board. With a group this size in the conversation, there will always be someone trying to stir the pot. If you can find a few people who really want to debate the issue, you can have a level headed discussion about the subject.

I can't recall at what temp water boils, can someone help me out?

[vetspet(ind)]

i agree...my point in bringing it up again is that this post was erased and cisco is whinning about only posting two references and that he is sick of being lamblasted...when i read that i thought of the hypocricy he was showing...he lamblasted my legitimate post...and then denied doing so...he has a record and the archives show it...i even listed the archives to prove he is full of it...so i'm basically stating that when he makes statements...they have about as much reliability as when clinton does..steve

[SUPERTROLLER]

WANTED : MEAN MIKE

Notorious Pot Stirrer

------------------------------------

Do not approach this man. Notify the proper authorities.
His is considered to be armed with wit and dangerous.
He will start arguements on any topic and laugh as others butt heads.
He truly is a danger to civilized society. Avoid him at all costs.

[Perca Flavescens]

Hey Vitreum.......Dang humans anyhow......why can't the settle things like us perch and walleyes do? Someone pi$$es you off just eat him! Watch for hooks!

[Perca Flavescens]

Hey Vitreum.......Dang humans anyhow......why can't the settle things like us perch and walleyes do? Someone pi$$es you off just eat him! Watch for hooks!

[WAeyes]

This is exactly the reason why this topic of discussion should have its own forum. I do see how our sport is related to environmental concerns but I hate to see it mixed in with questions like "Which rod should I buy?" I come to this site to learn from and help other fishermen. I don't care if they are liberal or conservative or freaked by global warming or not. I don't care what religion they are or if they even have a religion. I would like to ask someone a question without thinking whether they will give me a legitimate answer because I might not have the same political views and we just had an argument over the environment on a previous thread. Is it possible to have another forum here for political topics? If not, maybe some of us should take our political topics to another web site. Personally, I think they give this site a black eye.

[Einstein]

At what atmospheric pressure??

[Duane]

From what I can recall, boiling temp is 100 degrees C, and 212 F. However, I have no idea how atmospheric pressure affects this. Anyone want to enlighten us?

[Duane Waldron]

By the way, I remember a post, probably from last year, where someone had asked about keeping holes from freezing over. There were many responses, and suggestions ranged from WD-40 (not sure about environmental impact) to vegetable oil (which I think they said would build up on the line after awhile).

Anyone have any tried and true methods (at risk of turning this into a positive discussion)?

[Stizostedion virtreum man]

Perca flavescens

As you probably know, fish have a brain about the size of a pea, just like some humans. Their actions are based upon genetic instincts, unlike most humans. They can't operate a computer or compose a message for a website, their fins get in the way.

Life must be more simple for them, it's either you eat or are eaten (or once in awhile, caught and released)and you don't have to disagree or argue with your fellow fish. Ignorance for them must be bliss. Well, enough of these profound thoughts for one day, it becomes too taxing for the human mind. Remember to keep yours eyes open (for those hooks) and your feet(fins) dry.

S.v.m (tongue in cheek)

[Einstein]

Duane if we can figure out how the boiling temperature of water relates to walleye fishing I'd be happy to discuss how atmopheric pressure relates to it. :-)

[River_eye]

Steve, I think it's in the best interest of all of us to leave this argument alone. You guys are worse than cats and dogs, although I'm not even sure that Cisco is doing anything to provoke you.

River eye

[Tough Guy]

Tough Guy getting biology lesson from S.V.M. Take Tough Guy back to a time when life easier. Eat or be eaten...that Tough Guy language. Tough Guy here stories from ancestors about mighty dinosaurs chasing prehistoric Tough Family, sound easier than being tracked by snow ape every day. Dinosaurs no match for intelligent snow ape, Tough Guy must keep mental edge or sure death. Little tuffies must learn from Tough Guy, for they will battle snow chimps after next mating season. Life is survival of fittest. For more philosophies by Tough Guy please send $19.95 to Tough Wife, care of Walleye Central.

[Stizostedion virtreum man]

Tough Guy sound like he come from the past. Could Tough Guy be missing link? (just kidding Tough Guy).

Tough Guy keep eye open and foot dry.

S.v.m

[Cyprinis Carpio Carpio]

C'MON ICE!!!!!!! Friggin melt already!!! I got shallow water to roil up!!!!!!!

[Perca flavescens]

Hey larger cousin. Thanks for the insight on instinct. I think I finally figured out how I keep finding that same exact pile of rocks off Davis Besse every spring. Might explain how the girls seem to show up at the same time and temp. We have one heck of a party......uninhibited spawning, chow down on some Notropis atherinoides, take turns wrestling Osmerus mordax. Used to hang with your brother Stizostedion vitreum glaucom but haven't seen him in a while. Have you seen him lately? Man that guy always looked like he was cold or got run thru the washing machine with an ink pen.

Have a good one and watch out for those unpersonable guys with the hook shaped caudal fins and the name Reef Runner on their sides. What genus are they from anyhow?

[Stizostedion vitreum man]

Good morning flavescens. I always knew you were a party animal. I haven't seen glaucom since he developed the blues and swam away. Have some advice to share with you on your perilous journey:

1. Do Not go after a big. fat. juicy crawler
floating in the water, remember there is no
free lunch.
2. Esox lucius is NOT you friend.
3. Keep your mouth closed, more than open. You
get yourself in less trouble that way.
4. Do NOT let the upgrade to a game fish in the
last few years to go to your head, it will
cause you many more problems.

Remember little cousin, always do as I say and not as I do. Have to run now, there's a big fat leech that keeps bouncing in front of my nose.

S.v.

[WAeyes]

I see what you guys are doing here and I like it. Just like a towel of ice on a hot fever!

[dave]

I just got on board for today and started with need a favour message and replies and then went to this thread....Wow! My daughter would reply, "you're not the boss of me!" And my ex-chaufeur(sp?) once said,"why can't we all just get along?" I have found in general fishermen/women are more environmentally aware then most people as part of the addiction to fishing is the love of nature. Out.

[Stump]

river eye: Im not sure if your post was toward me or not???
If so...I have no idea exactly what you want me to back up!!As for my knowlege of environmental sciences,I retain enough to suit my needs.If it is your guess that I am uneducated in this area ,yes...you are wrong. I am aware of what CFS,s are and their effects on the ozone.Because of their relatively low toxicity levels and non reactive properties they became widely used as coolants and propellants.As far as what they do...up until about 15 yrs ago they were thought to be safe until it was discovered that combined with sunlight they produce chlorine monoxide which causes catalytic distruction of the ozone layer and stratospheric ozone loss.So if your post was for me,now you know the answers to your questions...if it wasnt WELL ..tight lines and bent poles to all!! John

[River_eye]

Sorry, I should have put a name on it. It was to Al.

River eye

[Al]

If that was intended for me...well yes, I do know a few things about CFC's. I'll gladly relate an experience I had with the refrigeration/AC industry. In it's zeal to save us from the "ozone depleting refrigerants", congress passed laws heavily restricting the use of them. Suddenly, there is a mad rush to find alternatives. Many companies put forth new ideas. DuPont seemed to be the leader. However, how much time was spent testing the long term effects of the alternatives on not only the environment (yes they had fast and seemingly good answers), but what about the poor guy in the field who gets exposed while servicing. Do we know that it won't effect them? Could it be another Oxygenated fuel fiasco which lead to the fuel additives being found in the water supply? How do we know the alternative refrigerants wouldn't have some unforeseen side effect in another way? The fact of the matter is, it didn't matter. On paper, it looks as if they saved us from the ozone depletion, but little effort was given to other things it could effect. And that is my point. Some guys with a zest for capturing research grants pushed this to the hilt. I'm not, nor have I said there is absolutely NO MERIT to it. I'm just saying that this has been carried to the extreme. It is the same debate over how much impact 4 strokes and Dfi's will have if all 2 strokes are removed from service. The cost versus the effectiveness gets lost in a loud clamor for those guys trying to gobble up grants.

Did you ever think that maybe DuPont helped push all of this to sell new products? I know, it sounds conspiracy like, but you should look at who benefits financially from all of this hub bub.Alternative source companies and research scientists chasing grants.

[cmb]

I have gotten swampwd with work and been away for most of the weekend, so I didn't get to se this thread develop. I think the short answer to my question is no, but somewhat kinda yes. so, I am going to try something. this topic may be a bit too hot, but check out my post for why I did not sign the "ban netters from Lake Erie" petition being solicited as I got my new ohio licence at the IX sport show.

I loved the Fish humor (especialy the Blue Pike stuff):)

[uraputz]

Yes Cisco, look what happened. You rekindled some old topic/debate.

By the way, you have not shared your anti-alcohol beliefs with us
anywhere within the thread. Better get on that.

[CONFUSED]

Umm....Quaffed back a rew beers with the boys......now I'm at the computer I'm a little confused. I cannot understand what is going on in this discussion. Could someone synopsize the posts in laymans terms. Where are we headed or should I go back to the bar and have a few more.