Don't stick needles in the fish

[Eyelander]

I am appalled that anglers would actually believe that poking a hole in a walleyes swim bladder or poking a hole anywhere in a fish is going to help keep it alive.
If you don't know what your doing or even if you think you do Please contact a marine biologist about this procedure. I have!! The only thing this poking around will result in is dead fish!!! You might think these fish are being returned safely to the depths when the only thing that is really happening is that they sink to the bottom and eventually float up at a later date.

Come on guys let's do the right thing here and stop killing such a magnificent breed of fish!

[Juls_WI]

Who was it you contacted? Name and number. I would like to give this person a call and have a chat with him/her myself.

Thanks,

Juls

[Biologist]

This would be a true statement. There is a percentage of fish that will not live after they are "fizzed". It is not a healthy practice overall.

[I second that!]

C'mon Eyelander, the ball is in your court. I have personally stood side by side with fisheries biologists and personnel while we all fizzed walleye's. I know that there are some tournies where fizzing is not allowed, as there are concerns about it being done right, but it does work. I even fizzed an eye an angler brought in to a bait shop, and didn't want to keep the fish. He caught it in deep water, brought it in to brag and was gonna release the fish. It surely would have died. We kept it in a bait tank for 5 days and released it unharmed. It was placed in a tackle shop bait tank to show anglers the fish, it was a good one. The fish shot off like a dart when released.

[Backwater Eddy]

Juls you Go Girl.......Woof!

:)

Backwater Eddy

[Chad]

Lets see, the fish is gonna die with an enlarged bladder. Do we attempt to save it by fizzing or just toss it back without fizzing to die for sure?

You make the call!

[curt quesnell]

eyelander,

"poking a hole" in the fish allows it to swim upright and
return to the depths it came from. it doesnt cure anything
else. the tiny poke hole seals itself right away, this is
a living thing we are talking about not a water balloon.

properly fizzing a fish wont kill it. if it dies it was already
a goner. fizzing CAN save a fishes life only by relieving one
of many factors that could be fatal.

a fish that can only swim in a circle, on its side, on the surface because his body is bloated with air doesnt have much of a chance.

the needle makes a much smaller hole in the fish that a barbed
hook, or a treble hook.

it is strange that you would be "appalled" at something that
could save a fishes life. it is also strange that you would
encourage a website full of fisherpeople to stop killing
this magnificent breed of fish.

im sure you mean well, but your post is presenting your opinions
as facts. thats not responsible.

if your "opinion" is "fizzing is bad", fine. say it that way.


thanks

curt quesnell

[curt quesnell]

biologist.

there are a good percentage of fish that die without
the fizzing.....so then, by your biology are we killing them
by not fizzing or are we killing them by fizzing.?

biologist (if that is your real name) properly fizzing
a fish doesnt kill it, it wont bring a dead fish back to life,
it wont cure everything that can go wrong with a fish.

the only thing that fizzing a fish can do is relieve the
pressure of a bloated body so that the fish can swim properly.
if the fish is gonna die from something else its still gonna
die.

here is my beef. why are you deliberately passing this miss-information around the world here on walleye central?
people comming here to learn may see "biologist" on your
post and take what you say to be true. not just your slant
on the topic.

curt quesnell

[Swat1]

I too would like to talk to this person please provide the name and number as you have been asked to by Juls.

Dan
Swat 1

[riggers]

A chance is better than no chance. The procedure is much the same as is done in a human who has had a lung fail. Take it from me it works in people as well as walleye. If it were me with my blader hanging out I would take my chances on a needle stick. Please give me any info that proves this is not the best chance for the fish and I might think other, but so far I have never seen it.

riggers

[henckel]

For what it's worth, here is some "biologist stuff" from the report of the 2000 meeting of the American Fisheries Society's Walleye Technical Committee. To view all their proceedings -- which centered on walleye tournaments -- go to: http://ws3.coopfish.siu.edu/walleye_tech/sum2000mtg.htm

A couple of their reports dealt directly with fizzing. They are (and I quote via cut-and-paste):

6. Walleye tournaments in Wisconsin. Kendall Kamke, Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources, KamkeK@dnr.state.wi.us

To assess delayed mortality for tournament caught walleye on the Winnebago system, two groups of tournament fish were held for 4-5 days after two tournaments, as well as a control group. One group of tournament fish was “fizzed” while the other was not. Control group fish were captured using electrofishing gear the day following the tournaments. Fish were held in live cages in the lake for one tournament and in DNR stocking trucks for the second tournament. During the 1st 48 hours for the cage-held fish, the “not fizzed” group had better survival than the “fizzed” group (78 vs. 24%). The control group had 96% survival for this same time period. However, past this columnaris developed in all three groups. By day 5, all but 1 fish from each of the two tournament groups was dead, and the control fish had suffered 44% mortality. Algae accumulation on the webbing of the cages was also a problem. The results from the stocking truck held fish were different. After 48 hours, both tournament caught groups had only 6% mortality, but the control group had suffered over 44% mortality. Past 48 hours, columnaris again developed and was a problem. Final mortality after 4 days for truck held fish was 18% for “not fizzed”, 39% for “fizzed”, and 56% for control. The experiment will be repeated again next year with changes in the number of fish held, different procedures, and better equipment to see if more reliable results can be obtained.

Kamke added later in his report that:
Ø Sixty percent of the states responding did not advocate gas bladder deflation or “fizzing”

###################
Also:
7. An Overview of Walleye Tournaments in Ohio. Debra Walters, Ohio Division of Wildlife, debra.walters@dnr.state.oh.us

The Division of Wildlife conducted several years of fizzing experiments on Lake Erie tournament caught walleye (Project Leader: Dave Insley, Castalia State Fish Farm, 7018 Homegardner Road, Castalia, OH 44824, (419)684-7499, casfh@nwonline.net). During the calm, 1991 walleye tournament, a total of 1,597 walleye were fizzed with 1 % mortality prior to release 20 hours later. A sample of 100 fish were held for six months at the Put-In-Bay Fish Hatchery with only three mortalities. In 1992, a fizzed versus non-fizzed experiment was conducted each day of the three day tournament. Each day two groups of 30 walleye (N=180) were randomly selected; one group was fizzed and the other group not fizzed (control). The fish were held in the hatchery for 14 days. All three groups of non-fizzed fish exhibited 100% mortality within nine days. The three groups of fizzed walleye exhibited an overall survival of 47%. Autopsies of dead fish revealed high incidence of fish spine puncture wounds through the abdominal cavity assumed to be due to poor livewell conditions due to rough lake conditions (3 to 6 foot waves). Non-experimental fish released immediately after each tournament day exhibited very high mortality. In 1993, a total of 2,061 walleye were fizzed and held for 24 hours. Immediate mortality was low, however, three weeks after the tournament large numbers of fish began dying at the release site. Again, lake conditions were very poor for the duration of the tournament. In summary, Ohio does not recommend fizzing walleye after a tournament because; 1) in most years Lake Erie is very rough during the tournament, therefore, livewell conditions are poor, 2) very time consuming and requires extra manpower, and 3) fish mortality is too high.

#############################
For what it's worth, I haven't talked to any biologists in my state that like fizzing either. They may be out there, but I haven't talked to them here. -- mark

[chrism]

Hold on! - This is nowhere near what is done on Humans - any form of therapeutically puncturing a chest is to get rid of air or liquid that can be detrimental to the lung function. There is ALWAYS a one way valve in place to prevent back flow of air into the chest cavity. An open communication would mean certain death.
Fizzing equilibrates the fishes internal pressure to the level at which it is poked - or atmospheric pressure. If you did this and kept the fish at near the same atmosperic pressure, it would probably survive and heal the puncture wound.
When you puncture a walleye (fizz) and that walleye swims deep, simple physics will push water into the fishes gut cavity through the fizz hole due to the pressure exerted on it. At 30 feet this is equal to one atmosphere pressure, or just under 15 PSI. I would bet this would kill a fish 100% of the time.
There is no supposed to be a communication between a fishes internal gut and the water, much like a human.

If you want to compare this to a medical type scenario, the closest thing would be a "gut-shot" and I am telling you the survival of those is dismal at best.

chrism

[River_eye]

To all those that believe that fizzing fish helps them out.

You say that you only fizz fish that would otherwise be goners. How do you know that these fish will surely die? Is it a certain depth? I'm just curious how you are deciding while holding these fish in your hands, whether it will die or not if you release it right away. Do you take it's temperature? blood pressure? Or do you just ask it how it's feeling?

Also, how long exactly does it take the fish to heal this hole in it's swim bladder?

Please enlighten me.

[Swat1]

Excuse me Chrism but you are WRONG! When a fish is fizzed the propper way there is a check valve in place!!! It is done with the fish under water in a live well much the same as a chest tube is placed in a human with a sterile water or Normal Saline filter/valve.

Further more the fishes muscle will close the needle stick the same as your body would for an 18 gauge needle. After all do you not take a bath after an injection for fear of water getting into the puncture?

And one last point, as the fish descends in depth the added presure would close the hole in the musculature tighter rather than open it by simple compresion.

You also stated that a chest tube is only used to remove blood or fluid from around the lungs. Also Not true!!! What do you think they use to allow reinflation of a lung after say a tension pneumothorax? (Air in chest cavity for those of you not in the medical field)

Please make sure you have your facts straight Chrism. If in your opinion you feel that fizzing is wrong just say so but please do not try to back up your oppinion with shaky science.

Dan Wyma, OTC, OT-SC, OPA-C

P.S. Yes I am a Physician Assistant and I have worked in medicine for over 22 years both in the opperating room and many emergency rooms.

[chrism]

Swat - without getting into a pissing match, my facts are straight. I think my post did mention that chest tubes remove both air and liquid.
Second, if fizzing is done underwater, you are correct there is only one way for the pressurized air to flow, and that is out. But when it swims deep, the pressure will push air into the hole, and I dont think everyone uses small needles. And you cant compare it to puncturing a humans skin with an 18ga needle - Sticking a 18 gu needle in a walleyes belly would equate to sticking a knitting needle (or trocar) into a humans chest/belly.
And you certainly wouldn't go into the tub after being poked with that , would you?
As for the hole closing, if the muscle was tight it may close, but if not, it would be the same as a hole in a diving suit. And once the fish get down to its desired depth, it will have little balance, as there is no functioning bladder.

And by the way, I have all the background you have and a few more letters pertaining to the "shaky science'" medical field. Except I specialize in lung/chest stuff...

You may disagree, it is a free world.
Have a great day and let's hope for an early iceout!

[Goner]

If the fish floats belly up and can't right it self it's not going to survive.Put the fish in the livewell and see if it swims or floats.Fizzing works period!The same fish that was floating in the livewell will immediately turn over and swim to the bottom of the livewell(AFTER FIZZING).after observing the the condition of the fish for several minutes or hours the fish is released.More often or not the fish is so lively it's hard to get ahold of to release it.If you do nothing the fish has no chance.But please have a pro or someone who knows the technique teach you how to do it.Don't just start poking holes or experiment on the greatest fish to ever swim.I have been fizzing for years and will continue to do so.Don't study tournament released fish they have been stressed in other ways.

[henckel]

For Juls, et al, who wanted to hear what biologists had to say, this is off the South Dakota Game, Fish and Parks site. -- mark

(http://thunder.state.sd.us/gfp/fishing/Info/FAQ.htm#fizzing):

Q. Does letting gas out of the gas bladder with a needle, or "fizzing" a fish, improve a fish’s chances of surviving?

A fish that is unable to remain upright in the water because it is severely stressed and/or has an over-inflated gas bladder, stands a poor chance of surviving, if released. "Fizzing" is a process where gas is released from the gas bladder of a fish by inserting a needle in the side of the fish and puncturing the gas bladder. While helping a fish regain it’s ability to return to the bottom of the lake, many fish that are "fizzed" end up dying within a few days of release, from the stress of being caught and handled. There is also the likelihood that when you insert the needle into the side of a fish you will damage internal organs such as the kidney or intestines. Just because a fish swims towards the bottom doesn’t mean it will survive.

Q. Is there any problem in releasing fish caught from deep water? What's deep water?

A. Generally, fish caught from depths 30 feet or greater should be considered as coming from deep water. From this depth, as fish are brought to the surface, the gases in their air bladder begin to expand placing pressure on their internal organs. The air bladder in some fish will be so expanded that it will cause their internal organs to extend out of the mouth. These fish are unable to swim beneath the surface. While other fish you may release after catching them from this depth appear to be O.K., often the internal damage caused to their other organs will take several hours or days to kill them.


Q. If there are so many fish dying from being released from livewells or deep water, why don't I see that many?

A. Lets use Lake Oahe as an example. In 1997 anglers reported releasing over 676,000 walleye during the period April through October. Lets assume that 50% died within a couple of days of being released or 338,000 walleye. That's an average of about 1850 per day. Then when you consider that the South Dakota portion of Lake Oahe is about one walleye for every 215,000 acres, that works out to about one walleye for every 116 acres. Then when we factor in that not all walleye that die float to the surface or for those that do, many are quickly removed by other predators or washed ashore. Its easy to see that we can have a fairly serious release mortality without actually seeing many dead fish on the surface of the water.

[henckel]

From the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources:

http://www.sportsmansdream.com/utahf.htm

When fishing deep water (deeper than 30 feet) most fish caught cannot be released with any assurance that they will survive. Bringing fish up quickly causes blood chemistry changes as well as an expansion of the air bladder to many times its normal size, often causing it to protrude out of the fish s mouth. Keeping the fish in the water and quickly releasing it so it can get back down to deeper water helps some. Puncturing the swim bladder with a needle ( fizzing ) does not improve survival. Some fish like lake trout can burp off the gases from the swim bladder when pulled up slowly. Most fish do not have this capability.

[Biologist]

That is understood. There are people out there that do it properly, and people who do this improperly. The fact will remain that fizzing is not the best procedure you can perform with a fish. I need to see more data on the number of fisher "people" that do fizz a fish when pulled from deeper water.
Otherwise, there is a small mortality rate with fizzing fish. If I can gather more information on this, I will post it.

[curt quesnell]

river eye

how long does it take for your finger to stop bleeding if you poke it with a needle? again, fish are live creatures not
balloons, a tiny puncture in the air bladder isnt what kills
the fish. what kills the fish is being hauled up out of
deep water. fizzing is one thing that is being tried to
stop the high mortality of fish caught in deep water.

it is a large problem, and i really hope you dont think that
this tiny pin-prick is killing fish. stress is killing these
fish. the idea is fizzing releaves the pressure of a bloated
body.

i never claimed that fizzing saved the fishes life. it does
allow them to swim upright where they could not if the fizzing
wasnt done.

it is easy to see if a fish is floating upside down in the
livewell with a huge bloated belly. thats how you can tell you
might want to try fizzing.

i want to point out that i dont fizz fish myself. i quit fishing
deep water when i have the fish i want to eat. i just couldnt
believe it when i read posts about fizzing killing fish. one
post even talked of some mysterious purple puncture wounds that
obviously lead to the demise of several (must have been 20)
tournement killed fish.

its pulling fish out of deep water, roughin em up in a livewell
all day and releasing em in 85 degree water later that is killing
the fish. they are working ways to try to improve mortality.
and again, fizzing is just one thing they are trying.

lets hope that good information comes soon

curt quesnell

[Dunn]

By puncturing a fishes air bladder so that is stays upright helps the fish regain the composure it loses while in the livewell. Helping it with the stress it's undergoing. And within a short time the small puncture hole heals without problems most of the time.

Now, I'm not saying some fish don't die becuase of it, but for most fish it helps. Fizzing will also allow a fish once released to regain it's normal level of stress due to being upright in a familiar territory, thus ridding stress levels.

Well that's my say..
--------------------
Marshall J. Dunn
Bluewater Research, Inc.
(OffShore Release)
N.P.A.A # 701

[henckel]

Marshall --

As near as I can figure, what the biologists from Wisconsin and Ohio are saying is that based on their research, the bulk of the mortality can be delayed. South Dakota and Utah apparently agree with them. Fish swim away and appear to be healthy, then die a day, or two days, or even five days later. Fishermen who released those seemingly strong, healthy fish weren't around anymore when the fish died. That's what makes this issue so tough. The fish appear to be healthy when you let them go. Then they die later. -- mark

[Jim Carroll]

I believe in fizzing. To me- to not fizz a fish that is unable to right itself in the water is guaranteeing that fish will not live. Obviously we need better research studies done on this procedure. I posted this the last time we were discussing deep water fishing on Mille Lacs.

Please fizz your fish! This will increase their odds of survival. Everyone fishing those depths with that slot limit should have a fizzing needle in their boat and know how to use it!Recent studies have shown fizzing IS effective in helping fish survive decompression and warm water situations. Please refer to the article in the Walleye Insider Jan/Feb 2000 page 20.

The summary of the article is "In summarizing the findings, the research team concluded that puncturing the gas bladder aided survival. And most members of the team easily learned to effectively deflate gas bladders after a couple of days of field work. The increased survival from fizzing more than compensated for occasional mortalities caused by the puncturing procedure."

This study was done on yellow perch, and that while I'm not a biologist, I want to believe that a puncture wound to a seven pound walleye has got to be a lot less lethal to it than one to a seven ounce perch. I personally would never let a fish go that was having obvious difficulties getting back to depth without fizzing it. These floaters have close to zero chance of survival given warm water water and decompression. Why let the gulls eat them? Fizzing fish is easy. One inch up and one inch over from the vent on a big fish. Put the needle in slowly and at an angle towards the center of the fish and you will hear the gas leaving the bladder. Make sure the fish is upright, revived, and then let it go! You have given that fish his best chance for survival. The fizz biz and CPR. Hug your hogs. JC

PS: It should be relatively simple to take a clip like a snap weight- attach a cord and a weight to it that is heavy enough to sink the fish back to the bottom with the clip on his dorsal or ventral fin, and after the fish has reached the bottom a quick tug and the fish is released back to depth...Anybody done a study on what it takes to sink a walleye?

[Eyelander]

I have definatley learned a lot from this posting, though some information is conflicting. I did not post this message to launch an attack on those anglers that promote "fizzing", but to simply to clarify the serious impact that this can have on aquatic life. I did not mean that the fish I found dead after a tournament died of needle marks but that these marks meant to me that these walleye had been "fizzed" and obviosly did not live.
There are many variables that come into play here and a lot of these variables have been mentioned.
The only reason I am so opposed to this procedure is that more than one Biologist and numerous Fish Commision oficials in my area have explained to me why this is not a suitable alternative.

And as for handing out phone #'s I wouldn't post anyones phone # other than my own.

I 've heard time and time again that one solution is to stop picking on these walleyes that are holding in deep water, I fully agree but try telling that to a guy that wants that to win that dough and just one more big one could just do it!!!!
I personally will not take part in killing natures beauty and until there is a better alternative, I'll leave those eyes alone
unless I plan on putting them in the frying pan.

Fish The World

[River_eye]

I fish on a river most all the time, and fish deeper than 30' occasionally, although I don't know if I've ever witnessed a walleye float on it's side after. Maybe it makes a difference being in a river. Or maybe it's just in fish above a certain size?

What makes it happen to you guys and not to me?

River eye

[stewart]

Well River Eye, not every fish comes up with their guts comming out of their throats, but have you ever noticed how some of those deeper fish look nice and fat? In my experience most of these fish can swim down again without fizzing.

I tend to agree with what Curt and others have argued,that whether fizzing works or not hauling walleyes up from the deep can't be good for them. I'm not a biologist, but it seems like common sense.Not a good C&R situation. However, arguing we should mostly leave them alone is like preaching abstinence to teenagers :).

[Juls_WI]

I hear ya eyelander, I wouldn't give out someone's personal number on here either without permission. I was assuming the person you talked to worked for a public organization (a number you could post). That was the number I was asking for. I also left my email on tha first post I wrote, so that you wouldn't have to post the number on the message board.
I wasn't being a smartass, I simply was short on time (had to go to work), and typed as short a response as I could. I'm sorry if you thought I was being rude.

Juls

[Al]

I've been to bass tournaments where smallmouth were not fizzed. I can tellyou, they don't survive. I stayed at the lake on vacation after one tournament and the floathing smallies became feasts for seagulls. Others just flat out died. As far as fizzed fish go, I know there was a study in Ontario a few years ago which lead them to conclude that even with some delayed mortality, they found the survival rate of fizzed fish was much better than non fizzed. I think it was U of Toronto but I can't remember for certain.They tested smallmouth bass.

[Scott D]

Jim, seems like a good idea to me. Maybe you could sink the walleye real slow so that he could get used to the changes?

Maybe at the tournaments we need to have some large pens/cages that are weighted to put some of the fish in and drop it down to 40' or whatever with an underwater camera attached. Then when the fish have gotten oriented then a door could be pulled open.

I don't know.....it just sounds like there should be a lot more studies done on releasing fish caught from deep water. More innovative ideas need to be thought up to keep the fish alive.

All this talk of released fish floating and dying will give the anit-fishing people some ammunition. Some of the animal rights wacko's would love to shut down tournaments and/or fishing all together.