Kenora-separate from Ontario?

[kenoraonca]

This might not be the place for this, but it would cover some fishing rules/regs if it ever happened.

What do you think? Should the City of Kenora consider joining the Province of Manitoba? The city and parts of NW Ontario feel they are being ignored by Queen's Park when it comes to funding for various things. Primarily in this case bailing out the Forest Industry.

[NWO Fishing Bum]

How about should Northern Ontario become it's own province??? The issue is Northern Ontario wide in many respects.

[kenoraonca]

I've considered that. Split Ontario in 1/2.
Thunder Bay (might) be the capital.
However, our population in NW Ontario I do not think would be enough to make the province work. Just keeping the reserves would break the bank account. I would think. They alone chew up a substantial amount of bucks.

The Mayor of Kenora, more or less said on one tv interview it might be a joint effort for a few communities, but on CTV Wpg. he only mentioned Kenora itself. The border did once run right down the middle of Main St (1800's)

Im just curious what people think of the idea, and would it fly in an election proposal.

[Split]

I say it's a great idea! Eastern Ontario does absolutely nothing for the region but cause problems, and can't see past the borders of its urban centers. Manitoba would undoubtedly be much more sympathetic to the concerns of N.W. Ontario. Good riddance!

[NWO Fishing Bum]

Out of curiosity, what do you think Manitoba will do to help the forestry industry. Tax breaks on power use has been something discussed here in Ontario, is this what you are thinking? Costs are certainly lower for forest management planning in Manitoba, far less detail, and cost to implement a plan than following Ontario's Forest Management Planning Manual, but all other practical costs would not change, in terms of getting wood out of the bush, to the mills, and beyond. Being in manitoba certainly wouldn't help the international softwood problem.

Now that is just forestry . . . there are many things to consider here (e.g., does every public service employee currently related in any form to Kenora going to have the same position in the Manitoba jurisdiction???). OPP? What about teachers with 20 years pension in the Ontario Secondary School Teachers Federation? I am in no position whatsoever to guess on how the logistics of something of this magnitude would work. But I do know, at a minimum, you would need to be able to answer several thousand questions like those above before many people would do any more than simply talk about it!
NWO Fishing Bum

[wawajake1]

The cost of electricity could be the advantage if merged with Manitoba ( or if Northern Ontario became its own province) because Northern Ontario electricity plants are primarily hydro powered. These hydropowered plants cost 3 cents a KWhr to break even , whereas Southern Ontario's nuclear and gas plants cost at least two or three times that. So when averaged out over the province, the industries including Northern Ontario papermills and wood plants and oriented strand plants that are even just a few miles away from hydro plants pay the larger rate.
These plants would be viable if they paid just slightly above cost for electricity like before but instead these plants subsidize southern ontario plants and electricity costs now.
That is just one of many advantages if it could be agreed to by provinces or any new provinces made.
Here in the Sault Ste Marie and Wawa we would be glad to be part of a province that includes everything North of Lake Huron , we have very little in common with the Toronto juggernaught (arrogant bastds !) , but we have lots in common with Kenora and Dryden and Thunderbay and others. I am tired of being Toronto's backyard where they come to camp but don't want us to cut a few trees and open mines to make a living. (while they hypocritically pave over prime farm land)
Where do I sign?

jake

[grt1]

Forget the price of Hydro, what NWO recieves from the Province is a drop in the bucket from what we send them. It has been estimated that we recieve less than 10% of the revenue that we send in the way of taxes, rayalties on natural resources and other hidden fees.

this idea of splitting is not a new one but every few years someone gets PO'd at the response from the province and puts the idea forward.

Certainly Mayor Dave has a gripe, the forest industries are a major economic factor to the NW part of the province, but they are not the only factor. Mining and tourism bring in millions to the provincial coffers.

the province has ignored us too long and speaking as one who lives in the unincorporated areas, they have just written our portion off. This is, in my opinion, something that we should seriously look at doing, but maybe as a previous posting has said, make the north it's own province called God's Country.

[multispecies]

Maybe you guys can join up with your sepratist buddies in Quebec and build your own little country, and maybe a nice little foot bridge over Hudson Bay wih flower planters and coach lights.Nothing is perfect and I believe that many changes could be made....but I doubt that becoming a part of Manitoba will be the answer.

Maybe we need a strong voice for Rural Northern Ontario,some MPP's who will stand up for their constiuents and not just tow the party line. People who are working for now....not just for the fat pension at the end of the rainbow.

Think about what you want, next time you vote,oh, and if you didn't vote last election...Shut up!!!

[grt1]

Well we voted but didn't get anyone on the governments' team, we got the leader of the NDP. Maybe that is why we get ignored.

As George Carlin says, he doesn't vote so he's the only person he knows that has the right to complain because he had nothing to do with putting those in power in power.

[kenoraonca]

You are correct on one thing. Those who we have voted for in the past here in NW Ontario do not seem to care what their constituents want. They simply go with party lines.

It is certainly time for a change in that direction both Fed. Municipal and Provincial

[kenoraonca]

The NDP although once a good party does not have enough of a voice these days. THAT certainly is one reason. Infect, they never actually got enough seats to make it. But we seem to keep voting for them anway.

People here will not change it seems, and it is high time they looked a little harder at this situation as to whom they vote for in the future electrions.

[ben dover jr]

Its hard for us to get true representation in this neck of the woods.....and when we do, as in the case of Joe from TBay, he ends up quitting over something as lame as same sex marriage. He could have made more of an impact and helped the region if he stayed. Not sure if being in the outskirts of Manitoba politics would help, but at least we would have cheaper power and car insurance.....one of which may benefit the paper companies. In the end though it is the decision of a large multinational company to pull out of towns like Kenora.....they only care about the greed of their shareholders. Perhaps the resources should be put back into the hands of local residents to run.....screw the foreign companies who couldn't care less about the resource or the people who live here.

jr.

[kenoraonca]

You may be right Ben.
I heard on the Northern News thing CTV last night, that the Unions or a group of whatever, is going to ask the Prov. Government for "force" Abitibi to remain open. I'll tell you something, "no one" is going to force Abitibi to do anything they do not want to do.

I wish one thing though. That here in Kenora, they promote Kenora for what we are and that is a tourist destination. Go with what we have. The two snowmobiling clubs should settle their diff. and work together. The permit is under the Ontario Motor Vehicle Act. and we NW Ontario are not going to change that, it takes the OFSC permit (once again Southern Ont. influence) to ride. Accept it, and get down to having suitable trails that will bring in winter tourists, and jobs. Sure maybe not high paying jobs, but jobs none the less. Sooner or later (mark my words) larger manufacturing companies (small ones) will notice our great outdoors, and build here. We need local leaders who have vision for the future. We need local leaders who are somewhat younger in age than what we presently have too. Younger and intouch with today's computer driven world.

Look at Kenora right now or at least this summer and ever summer. Our population doubles, and that folks in certainly not from the Lumber Industry. It's not the lumber industry's exec's that are coming here to visit, but Mb's, American's, some from other countires, and other provinces.

It's the same with many smaller communities in NW Ontario too. But here too we must watch what we do in future building. Water qualtiy, fishing quality etc. etc. must be kept in check. If we start over populating our lakes and rivers with cabins, boats and motors, we will put ourselves out of that business too.

[ben dover jr]

I'm not sure how the allocation of forest resources actually works, but I know that the Abitibi mill in Kenora has its allocation....and that is worth big $. Maybe Abitibi can moth ball the shop and still hang onto the trees....if that is the case it would be in everyones interest to be tough and lay it on the line. Close the mill for whatever reason and the allocation goes to someone who will generate some jobs for the local economy. It has to really hit them in the pocket book before someone like Abitibi will behave like a good corporate citizen.......I could be wrong too, perhaps the paper industry is in decline and nothing but some "new" thinking (value added products) will be the only alternative. This is where government needs to step up to the plate and put in some seed money for research and development.....not necessarily to the paper companies either. You are right about the value of tourism and the need to maintain the high level of water quality and other tourism values (ie fishing, remoteness, etc) Too often the simple minded solution seems to be "lets make more cottage lots".....but usually at the expense of something else. The value of the trees to the paper company are only beneficial once every 60-80 years, or the life cycle of the tree. In the case of tourism the trees generate a value (tourism $) annually and in perpetuity.

[NWO Fishing Bum]

Again, out of curiosity, many residents of Kenora I speak with understand the need for tourism to the area, but they absolutely hate the fact that come summer, in come the tourists (Americans and alot of Manitobans), and up go the prices on virtually everything. Then in fall the tourists leave and the prices often remain higher, gauging the local pocketbook. Many Kenora residents I know hate Manitobans for coming in for weekend parties, then returning home, or for coming in and buying up businesses or property, while still primarily residing in Manitoba ($$$ going out of region and out of province). Is it that much different than multinational forest companies?? Do you think harnessing/preserving/accentuating tourism opportunities in Kenora will all be done through Ma + Pop type places, owned by Kenora area residents?? Most likely not!! I can see the commercial now " . . . NO, BUT I DID STAY AT A LAKE OF THE WOODS HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS LAST NIGHT"

Don't get me wrong, I am trying to play Devil's Advocate here a little, and keep the debate flowing. I agree, we do need younger politicians who understand the multi-stakeholder interests on NWO land use planning and resource management . . . somebody like myself fresh out of school, who has worked several years at a NWO lodge, who holds an HONOURS degree in OUTDOOR RECREATION, PARKS AND TOURISM from a NWO university, AND holds a MASTERS degree in FORESTRY from a NWO university, and who originally came from S. Ontario and understands resident motivations from down there but loves the north, and is politically knowledgeable and politically enthused.

What do you think? Do I have your vote???

NWO Fishing Bum

[ben dover jr]

Unfortunately the proximity of Kenora to the Manitoba "tourist" is not as beneficial as perhaps the US. tourist. The average "Toban" is not a big spender when it comes to looking for lodging or fishing packages.....they want a deal or are happy to camp out in a provincial camp ground. Cottage owners from Manitoba may have a bigger impact on the local economy. The US tourist is the big spender in the present scheme of things. The bottom line though is that tourism still tends to underprice itself and therefor the benefits still have growth potential. The average Kenora resident has no appreciation of the millions of $ generated and spent locally by the tourism industry. The comparison of the mill ownership vs perhaps smaller businesses own by out of province people is stretching it.......when the mill shuts down you feel the impact more than when Joe Toban closes his restaurant. Maybe its time that more Kenora residents take part in the tourism industry (or any other business enterprise) as owners, in that way the dollars that are generated are retained in the local economy year round. The escalating price of lakeshore property around the Kenora area should give you an indication of the value that many perceive this area holds.

[NWO Fishing Bum]

So who owns all that expensive escalating $$ lakeshore property??? Is it local people? And if it is than they shouldn't be selling it, should they? (At least that is what you would say) Or if they do sell it, they should sell it ONLY to other locals who would invest in tourism opportunities. Is that what you are suggesting?? And what do you say to your buddy landowner when he has $300 000 max. offer from someone in Kenora, $500 000 from a guy in Winnipeg, and $1 million max offer from a guy in Chicago? "Take the $300 000, you'll be helping the local economy." Like I said, I agree with your philosophy, but I've learned over the years that philosophy can get you only so far before you have to start dealing with the practicality of things. Absolutely, the people of this region have to recognize the unbelieveable (nearly impossible to value) tourism potential for the area. And politicians, companies, and landowners big and small need to jump on-board. Now how are you going to do it??? This is standard procedure in land use planning and resource management discussions throughout this region. Many poeple/groups have several elaborate "utopia's" of how to sustainably manage and grow the region, be it an integrated resource management approach, a bioregional approach, an 'eco-opportunities' approach, etc., etc. . . . but when you talk to people actually on-the-ground, trying to put these things into action, they say "Great!! Now, how are you going to do it????" And the idealists give them blank faces.

There is huge opportunities for NWO to be a world-leader in regional nature-based tourism management. I love that industry, and I can tell you that guiding at a fishing lodge (for example) is an excellent job, and does pay better than most realize, BUT it is seasonal, it's long hours, and few people could do it from a physical stamina standpoint, let alone the necessary skills and personality traits. Furthermore, I lived comfortably as a post-secondary student on a guiding wage, but I certainly didn't make enough $$ to be investing in my own lodge, or buying up land for future growth. So how do local Kenora folk build the TOURISM industry on the back of the TOURISM industry (and not on forestry or any other industry). What if Ben Dover Jr., and a bunch of his buddies, and perhaps the city get together and buy the mill from Abitibi? You could call it 'Kenora Paper.' Or better yet, buy the mill and sell-off everything inside of it, then use the building shell to house a huge indoor tourism facility . . . I can see it now: driving range, go-kart track, batting cages, mini-golf, rollercoasters (everybody loves those), maybe a stocked artificial lake . . . ALL owned by local Kenora residents. Perhaps that would keep the tourism $$ flowing strong throughout the winter. Are these solutions far-fetched???

So, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO DO IT?? Because if you can't answer that question, on a practical basis (as well as a philosophical basis), then the slow "growth" will occur, but not the way you want, rather it will be . . . NO, BUT I DID STAY AT A LAKE OF THE WOODS HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS LAST NIGHT!"

NWO Fishing Bum

[ben dover jr]

From a selfish perspective I much preferred the way this area was 20-30 years ago.....economic growth will only cause things to go downhill. I don't need a Walmart to enjoy the ability to live on a beautiful lake. Most tourist resorts have grown to the point where they are becoming a blight (my selfish perspective) on the landscape. The loss of jobs if the mill shuts down will surely be missed by the people employed there, but in terms of retaining what remains of our forested area it will be a positive.

[NWO Fishing Bum]

That obviously does not answer the question!

[bigfish1965]

You guys are on crack. How can the far north ever expect to survive without the steady flow of revenue from the south? Do you think the population density could afford to support hospitals and schools? How about forest fighting equipment?
Without the taxes pulled out of Toronto and the rest of the south, you would not have your highways and infrastructure.
But if you go, please take the NDP with you.
Unfortunately you are stuck with the fools in Toronto like the rest of us.

[NWO Fishing Bum]

Wow Bigfish, you are way off-base on this one (which is a surprise). Do you know how many more thousands of kilometers of highway are down south? There are essentially two highways up here, 11 and 17. Start doing the math, the proportional difference in highway to maintain down south outweighs the proportional difference in population. Schools? They just closed 14 schools in Thunder Bay? I didn't see any cheques flowing from Toronto to keep those schools open. Schools, hospitals, etc., are a function of the local population dynamic. If you think every small community in the north has a full-funcitoning hospital, you are dead wrong. I am sitting right now across the road from the Thunder Bay Regional Hospital, and the air ambulance almost never stops, often carrying people several hundred kilometers to get care. How many hospitals are within a several hundred kilometer radius of Queen's Park?? There is less population up here and thus there are less hospitals and/or smaller care facilities. Do you think we pay a lower provincial tax percentage up here??

What we can do is produce enough energy for ourselves at far cheaper a rate than we are currently being forced to swallow, particularly something like mills, many of which use to produce their own power, and now are forced to pay through the teeth for it. The auto industry always seems to get its money. Where is the money for forestry? Why doesn't somebody take some of that "steady flow of revenue" (some of which, perhaps to your surprise, actually came from here) and send it north. Or are the people up here still not screaming loud enough??!!!??

NWO Fishing Bum

[NWO Fishing Bum]

Wow Bigfish, you are way off-base on this one (which is a surprise). Do you know how many more thousands of kilometers of highway are down south? There are essentially two highways up here, 11 and 17. Start doing the math, the proportional difference in highway to maintain down south outweighs the proportional difference in population. Schools? They just closed 14 schools in Thunder Bay? I didn't see any cheques flowing from Toronto to keep those schools open. Schools, hospitals, etc., are a function of the local population dynamic. If you think every small community in the north has a full-funcitoning hospital, you are dead wrong. I am sitting right now across the road from the Thunder Bay Regional Hospital, and the air ambulance almost never stops, often carrying people several hundred kilometers to get care. How many hospitals are within a several hundred kilometer radius of Queen's Park?? There is less population up here and thus there are less hospitals and/or smaller care facilities. Do you think we pay a lower provincial tax percentage up here??

What we can do is produce enough energy for ourselves at far cheaper a rate than we are currently being forced to swallow, particularly something like mills, many of which use to produce their own power, and now are forced to pay through the teeth for it. The auto industry always seems to get its money. Where is the money for forestry? Why doesn't somebody take some of that "steady flow of revenue" (some of which, perhaps to your surprise, actually came from here) and send it north. Or are the people up here still not screaming loud enough??!!!??

NWO Fishing Bum

[bigfish1965]

>Wow Bigfish, you are way off-base on this one (which is a
>surprise). Do you know how many more thousands of kilometers
>of highway are down south? There are essentially two highways
>up here, 11 and 17. Start doing the math, the proportional
>difference in highway to maintain down south outweighs the
>proportional difference in population. Schools? They just
>closed 14 schools in Thunder Bay? I didn't see any cheques
>flowing from Toronto to keep those schools open. Schools,
>hospitals, etc., are a function of the local population
>dynamic. If you think every small community in the north has
>a full-funcitoning hospital, you are dead wrong. I am sitting
>right now across the road from the Thunder Bay Regional
>Hospital, and the air ambulance almost never stops, often
>carrying people several hundred kilometers to get care. How
>many hospitals are within a several hundred kilometer radius
>of Queen's Park?? There is less population up here and thus
>there are less hospitals and/or smaller care facilities. Do
>you think we pay a lower provincial tax percentage up here??
>
>
>What we can do is produce enough energy for ourselves at far
>cheaper a rate than we are currently being forced to swallow,
>particularly something like mills, many of which use to
>produce their own power, and now are forced to pay through the
>teeth for it. The auto industry always seems to get its
>money. Where is the money for forestry? Why doesn't somebody
>take some of that "steady flow of revenue" (some of which,
>perhaps to your surprise, actually came from here) and send it
>north. Or are the people up here still not screaming loud
>enough??!!!??
>
>NWO Fishing Bum


We're closing schools and merging hospitals like crazy here too. I live a few miles from Canada's greatest source of hydro-electric power. we don't get any price break on that either.
However, the flow of revenue has always been south to north. None of us here have a problem with that. We need the north and the north needs us.
I guess we don't complain loud enough about what's going on here so that you guys see it is the same for us.
As long as the US keeps the illegal tarriffs in place, forestry is going to suffer.
None of us favour tax breaks for auto industries at all. We should not be lining the pockets of the stockholders.
If an industry cannot survive on its own, it should be left to die.
IF the lumber companies ever get the refunds owed on the tarriffs, perhaps things can improve for them.
My parents live in the north and I see where the underfunding takes place but I also se things improving like it is in North Bay with their massive new hospital.
Here we have a population of nearly 1 million which swells to 15 million in the summer and we only have 2 (sometimes 3) CO's for the whole district. Now that's underfunding!

[kenoraonca]

Geesh is the population of North Bay a million now? How times have changed since I was their.

Funny, Kenora never changes that much. 17,000 so they claim. Dryden has grown more and seems to get more than we do. We are doing something wrong and not attracting attention.

[kenoraonca]

Well step up to the plate and put up $100 and add your name to the next Kenora election. You certainly have a few more qualifications than some of those on city council right now. Not to mention the education.

I'll consider voting for anyone with new ideas. After all, it's your future WE are talking about here. At 60 it certainly isn't mine. If I was younger around 40 or so, I'd throw my hat into the ring myself (did it once) and even now at 60 I am thinking of it again if I can clear up some health issues. I may be old in age, but I have younger ideas for Kenora than most. I am not afraid of changes and understand that in order to prosper we have to make changes that many others will totally disagree with.

[kenoraonca]

Humm. I like some of those ideas.
But as I understand it, Abitibi will not sell the mill. It would be a shame to see it just sit their and rot though which is probably what will happen. IF it shuts down completely, they will eventually remove the paper machines and move them to another facility. Wgo knows. Or they could let it sit their until a new forest grows to adult size trees. I was behind a truck a few day ago. Some of the trees I noticed were small. Like I mean small. I've seen xmas trees with bigger trunks. Shows ya, they are hitting the bottom of the barrel. The stuff they require to make it, is farther north no doubt, and costs too much to bring back into this area, or any other. When the mill was opened the product was close.


As for tourism. I see a lot of things this city could look into that would generate action and bring visitors (not just Mb's) . Even the aboriginal people could get into various tourism attractions. A native village perhaps. Long house, dress in traditional garb, lake tours to pictographs, etc. etc. Guiding too. Lots of possibilities their. Lotw and our area waters is not just all fishing or even hunting. It's getting in the outdoors and with nature to me. I too guiding. Made a reasonable living, but not enough to bank much to buy into something myself. Never considered doing anything else either. I too am from Southern Ontario and never will return for any reason. Who needs that kind of traffic jams. Sure if we expand and grow here, we will have traffic problems, but nothing in comparision to the 400,401 or 403.

Too many people relied on just the mill. None of our past city administration even though of looking for other industries to come here so they stayed in Wpg or went elsewhere. We had abitibi, what else did we need.

Tourism has been here since the railroad. It has grown continously since. It has always and always will be here or in this immediate area as long as we take care of the fishing, keep the quality of the water good, not over built like American Lakes and have wall to wall cabins and docks, It too must be watched. With this new Legacy it might help prevent over population of our islands etc.

I've seen many changes on LOTW over my 20 years boating around. Some I like, so I do not. But that too is progress.
One of these days some big developer will look at this area and put 2 and 2 together. and really start some building IN Kenora itself. Someone who is not afraid to buck local establishment rules. That we need too is tell some of this old guard to take a flying leap. I know a few that have tried to start their own business. Even they much attempt to compete against an established business they could have a problem. For example. Try and start up another cruise boat or sightseeing tour (lake) business and see what happens. That's only ONE example.

[kenoraonca]

The industry apparently is in a deline. Fewer people are buying newspapers as many are now buyng subscriptions for them on line and reading the paper on their puters. I too do that for a few.

They are trying to get the government to take away abitibi's rights to the trees if the mill shuts down. But..I think that would be worse would it not? Who's going to pick up those rights and if they take it away would that not mean even more jobs lost. Skidders etc. etc. I myself am not sure of the results on that one.

Someone told me Trus Jois is buying more lumber for their mill here from Manitoba than it is from here in this area?? Someone in the know too. But once again, I personally am not sure.

As I said in a post below, I've seen some real small trees on truck around here lately.

IF they can save the one paper machine and keep some of the jobs that would be nice. The city is NOW (a bit late I think) putting together a committee to look into other avenues for keeping it running. co-Generation, Biomass Generation. How long have they had an idea the mill might shutdown or reduce staff?? Like certainly not yesterday, and now they took into this matter. Awesome.

[kenoraonca]

I agree with you in a way Ben. I too liked it when I could boat around the lake and not run across another boat for the whole day. Even one of the 15 guide boats the resort had. Hardly ever saw anyone except when we met for shorelunch. Now however that is nearly impossible to do. More cabins, bigger cabins (private) have been built. Another resort too in this one area. All the older resorts have expanded to a certain extent. For sure from 25hp to 50's so their range has expanded. But that is progress. It created more jobs in the summer to say the least.

My only fear is wall to wall cabins and docks in some areas. Having fished many lakes north of Toronto up to Temagami I have seen that happen. The fish to a certain extent are still their, but the boating,sailing, traffic is a killer.

I can see some drastic changes to the shoreline around Kenora in the not so distant future. What is now residential will become commercial property. I can eventually see another hotel chain one of these days too that will put up something big enough it will accommodate a Convention Centre, docks, stores, etc. etc. Maybe not in my lifetime, but it will happen. It only takes a little imagination, money, and politcal leaders "here" with the future in mind and not local ties.

NO, BUT I DID NOT STAY AT A LAKE OF THE WOODS HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS LAST NIGHT"

[cecilB]

I have always regretted only having the time to make a trip to NWO 1 week/year from the states. I do more than ever. Grounded people, intelligent in their debates, living where I wish I could. This is an interesting thread.

NWO Fishing Bum, I encourage you to find a way into canadian politics. I would contribute to your campaign. Your country, our world need minds like yours.

[ben dover jr]

One of the changes that is and needs to occur is a general shake-down of the present day paper mills. It is no longer viable to maintain the strangle-hold the labor force and unions have on the operation of a mill like that in Kenora. Everyone knows of the fellow who brags about sleeping half the shift on the job or the 3 men needed to change a light-bulb philosophy. That was fine when times were good but no longer. There also needs to be major investment to make it a modern and competative facility, not the dinosaur that it seems to be at the present time.