PWT Black Eye and Chris Bahl

[Jimmy Bell]

I need to make some points on this issue and the thread was getting too long to believe they would be read.

First off I want everyone to understand that I know Chris personally and have helped him in certain areas when I could. He is one of the most intelligent people that I know, but I do have some concerns for all the comments that are being made.

Chris made a mistake plain and simple. Everyone wants to point fingers and to often it is the American way. Chris made the decision to bring that fish up, not anyone else just Chris. The Game and Fish believed it to be illegal and issued a ruling. That ruling was law and the PWT did what it should have and followed that law. Many of us have made similar mistakes, me included, and we learn from them and move on.

Chris pulled himself out of the Tournament, he was not Disqualified, he quit. Once that happened, in my mind, he lost all negotiating power, as far as the Tournament is concerned. There is not anyone that can say it cost him or anyone else the Tournament because he did not finish it. He came in with Zero pounds on the last two days, based on his decision, not the PWT's or the Game and Fish. He also left two very unhappy ametuers sitting on the dock. In my opinion Chris should have continued to fish! If he was, and I think he was, on that great of fish he still may have won.

The only binding complaints that Chris has are fighting his citation in court and that the PWT did tell us that it would be fanned tail. They corrected this the following morning but Chris may not have heard that. Ultimately, according to the written rules, Section VIII "Rules & Interpretation:
Contestants will be responsible for knowing and abiding by PWT, state and local rules and regulations which pertain to the tournament waters." As Professional's it is our responsibility to abbide by the rules and understand them.

We do have committees that handle Ethics, safety and many other issues, there is the PWT angler committee and the NPAA. Once you break law these committees have no jurisdiction. The PWT, could not and should not have made any other judgement. As another angler fishing what would you say if they would have gone with another judgement and disregarded what the law has said? You would have had 151 other anlgers up in arms. We can compare ourselves to all the other Professional sports, but we are the only group as Anglers that has to follow State Laws to have our competition. Yes other groups have rules to follow, but we must follow the Law, good or bad.

Do I agree with how the Game and Fish treated situations and us, absolutely not! Should we go back to South Dakota, not in my opinion. Not unless we can put pressure on the State to straighten up, and this could be done.

Chris made a bad decision and from his posts he toggles from understanding that, and getting angry. I hope that he gets a grip on this and takes the blame, and if he wants, fights the ticket. Chris has fished with me as an ametuer and now I compete against him as a Pro and a qulity Pro. I wish him the best as a fellow angler and as a friend!

Jimmy Bell

[Chris Bahl]

Jimmy

Good post. However, I disagree with some points.

1) I have accepted my responsibility of the blame whole heartedly and I believe I have represented that. I am not pointing fingers. I am only doing what is right and what I believe will ultimately benefit you and other tournament anglers.

2) Proper procedure in competition is to halt all competition when there is a protest. I withdrew from the tournament "Under Protest" which I clearly stated in a written stament Wednesday night. I never heard from the PWT and ultimately never received a ruling on my case. To this day I never heard Mark Dorn say I was DQ. It wasn't until yesterday that I heard that from Jim Kalkofen in a letter. My case was never reviewed by the PWT, my protest was denied and therefore I was denied "Due Process." I followed the consistent and common rules of competition. I hope that you respect that.

Please give me a call if you would like to discuss further. As you know, I have a great deal of respect for you as I am one of your biggest fans. I value your thoughts.

Chris Bahl

[Jimmy]

I have been trying to call but cannot get through only busy signals. If you have my numbers give me a try! I wanted to talk to you before I posted but had to say my part.

Take Care,
Jimmy

[ddt]

>I need to make some points
>on this issue and the
>thread was getting too long
>to believe they would be
>read.
>
>First off I want everyone to
>understand that I know Chris
>personally and have helped him
>in certain areas when I
>could. He is one
>of the most intelligent people
>that I know, but I
>do have some concerns for
>all the comments that are
>being made.
>
>Chris made a mistake plain and
>simple. Everyone wants to
>point fingers and to often
>it is the American way.
> Chris made the decision
>to bring that fish up,
>not anyone else just Chris.
> The Game and Fish
>believed it to be illegal
>and issued a ruling.
>That ruling was law and
>the PWT did what it
>should have and followed that
>law. Many of us
>have made similar mistakes, me
>included, and we learn from
>them and move on.
>
>Chris pulled himself out of the
>Tournament, he was not Disqualified,
>he quit. Once that
>happened, in my mind, he
>lost all negotiating power, as
>far as the Tournament is
>concerned. There is not
>anyone that can say it
>cost him or anyone else
>the Tournament because he did
>not finish it. He
>came in with Zero pounds
>on the last two days,
>based on his decision, not
>the PWT's or the Game
>and Fish. He also
>left two very unhappy ametuers
>sitting on the dock.
>In my opinion Chris should
>have continued to fish!
>If he was, and I
>think he was, on that
>great of fish he still
>may have won.
>
>The only binding complaints that Chris
>has are fighting his citation
>in court and that the
>PWT did tell us that
>it would be fanned tail.
> They corrected this the
>following morning but Chris may
>not have heard that.
>Ultimately, according to the written
>rules, Section VIII "Rules &
>Interpretation:
>Contestants will be responsible for knowing
>and abiding by PWT, state
>and local rules and regulations
>which pertain to the tournament
>waters." As Professional's it
>is our responsibility to abbide
>by the rules and understand
>them.
>
>We do have committees that handle
>Ethics, safety and many other
>issues, there is the PWT
>angler committee and the NPAA.
> Once you break law
>these committees have no jurisdiction.
> The PWT, could not
>and should not have made
>any other judgement. As
>another angler fishing what would
>you say if they would
>have gone with another judgement
>and disregarded what the law
>has said? You would
>have had 151 other anlgers
>up in arms. We
>can compare ourselves to all
>the other Professional sports, but
>we are the only group
>as Anglers that has to
>follow State Laws to have
>our competition. Yes other
>groups have rules to follow,
>but we must follow the
>Law, good or bad.
>
>Do I agree with how the
>Game and Fish treated situations
>and us, absolutely not!
>Should we go back to
>South Dakota, not in my
>opinion. Not unless we
>can put pressure on the
>State to straighten up, and
>this could be done.
>
>Chris made a bad decision and
>from his posts he toggles
>from understanding that, and getting
>angry. I hope that
>he gets a grip on
>this and takes the blame,
>and if he wants, fights
>the ticket. Chris has
>fished with me as an
>ametuer and now I compete
>against him as a Pro
>and a qulity Pro.
>I wish him the best
>as a fellow angler and
>as a friend!
>
>Jimmy Bell

What is your point here?? You say Chris
made the wrong call,then you go on to
say SD better get thier act together or
the Pro's should stay away. Please tell
me what did SD do wrong? Eighteen inches is the same in all states. Its not how close,one hair over,or under,its on the
mark. The CO made the call,as he saw it
he is the law.
Don thompson.

[WJames]

Laser600

I don't think Chris or anyone else on this page has made claims to Chris being a "hero." I also believe you misinterpreted Mr. Bell's post as I do not believe he wants to defame or discredit Chris and/or his efforts. I respect Mr. Bell and Mr. Bahl both for having the precense to post their stances on this very serious issue. Maybe it is beyond your capacity of thought.

Please state your name so we all know who you are.

Warren James

[Scott Fairbairn]

Jimmy,

Thank you for stating so clearly what many of us have been thinking as the aforementioned post grew longer and longer. Chris made a couple of mistakes. First, he should not have brought that fish to the scales becuase the risk of his intrepretation being differnet from that of the SD game wardens view was too large. I believe that this will be a lesson not soon forgotten by Chris. The second mistake that Chris made was to withdraw from the event -- no one will ever know whether or not he could have finished out the way he started. If Chris were on the pattern as well as is purported he would have been a contender for top money if not the win even without day one. However, this is merely speculation. It is indeed unfortunate that Chris did not finish the event under protest, it would only have made his case stronger.

In reference to the "due process" described by Chris, the moment in which he violates state game and fish law he should be treated no differently than any other competitor and be disqualified from the tournament. We as tournament anglers are constantly being harped at by a vocal anti tournament crowd for requesting special treatment. We as professionals need to be very careful about the impact of claiming that PWT, NPAA or anyone should be in the business of protecting us from the law. The law is the law.

It is unfortunate that Chris is not a member of the NPAA and therefore did not attend our meeting on Sunday night prior to the competition. If he were and if he had attended he would of heard a very long dissertation about the relationship between tournament anglers and the SD GFP. The relationship has been very rocky to say the least. In fact I truly believe that SD GFP officials routinely single out tournament anglers and try to make an example of them. To find proof one need look no furthur than the fact that additional game wardens from outside their districts were in Chamberlain just for the PWT event. The point is that knowing that the GFP is looking for someone to slip up makes it even more important for someone wearing the title of professional to be extra cautious in regard to towing the line. Do I think that GFP targeting us is right or even legal? Absolutely not! Do I wish to return to SD to fish? Not until we tournament anglers are treated in the SAME manner as any other group or individual. Should Chris have been exceptionally careful given this background? Without a shadow of doubt.

Chris used an example of other sports -- hockey for example -- where the police do not come and start arresting players for assault every time there is a fight. While it may be true that they do not arrest the players this does not by any stretch of the imagination mean that they can not or that NHL could stop them from doing so. They simply choose not to enforce the law in that case. In Chamberlain SD the game wardens chose to enforce the law and Chris will have to live with the consequences.

I want to reiterate that I do not believe it is a good impression to leave the general public that we tournament anglers request that the PWT, NPAA or anyone step in and interfere with the law. We have enough trouble explaining to the general public that we are usually far from that line.

Scott Fairbairn #99

[800proX]

I agree - I think there was no intent on Mr. Bell to point a finger, he just simply stated 18" is 18" in alot nicer terms thatn that. Please do not start this into a he said/she said deal. This is something all walleye anglers can learn, as I am sure all of us have seen the DNR slapping wrists at the boat launch, this just happens to be in a tournament where the rules are still the same. Mr. Bahl has admitted his wrongdoing, and for that I applaud him, not making him my hero, but applauding him nonetheless for his ability to stand up admit a mistake, and proceed from there. I might not agree with all his tactics or his analogies to major professional sports, but i do stand behind his ability to come in and not start a bashing post.

jeff

[Al]

I'd like to know who was pointing fingers? How is questioning and wanting due process blaming others? How do you know the CO wasn't some overbearing idiot who made a poor judgement call? Where you right there as those who wrote statements in Chris's favor? Chris made a decision yes, and while the CO made a judgement....others saw something different...But the CO got rid of the evidence. Now if that doesn't trouble you.....that's your problem. The more people bow down and let these types of CO's have their way, the more they believe they can get away with it. As far as PWT people standing by and saying nothing....that doesn't shock me at all. They got your money...they want to avoid controversy...even if one of their guys gotted screwed. As far as I'm concerned, you have a right to your opinion, but to just let it go.....that's bull, because that crap will continue unless you touring guys get a grip on it. Right now your boys running the show are gutless from what I've seen.

[jarred b]

Lets get one thing straight this is not about being a hero this is about due process. The last I checked SD was still part of The USA and at all levels even tournament fishing we ALL still have the right of Due Process. Chris simply wanted to have a chance to protest his case. The unfortunate thing is the over zealous DNR official felt the pressure from the crowd, and with out thinking took judgment into his own hands. I want to re-stress the point that this has never been about making Chris out to be a hero. It has been about what is right and fair that is what did not happen. I want to wish Chris Bahl and his Team Stizo the best of luck.

jarred b

[Dan]

In what way did the SDGF&P personnel mis-handle the situation? You say that they need to straighten up. How so? We as anglers would like to know the full story. I see it as the fish in question was legal or illegal.

[That's Fine]

OKay have fun in court with the SD officials. The PWT and NPAA are just bystanders in this case. They did not legally have the right to interfer with an law enforcement person doing their job. Would you have them break the law?

[Chris Bahl]

Scott

Once again, I do not believe in any way shape or form that tournament anglers should be given special treatment above and beyond the law. I also believe that many of us tournament anglers do an exceptional job of respecting the law and mother nature first and foremost, above competition. However, I do believe that the tournament organization must have its own rules, within the law, and rule consistantly within those rules. My issue is that the PWT never evaluated and thus made a ruling on my case.

It is not beyond thought that a tournament could accept and weigh a fish that the Game and Parks deems illegal. No two people measure fish the same. The tournament must make their ruling and any issue that an angler may have with a ruling of a game and parks official is between that angler and the game and parks. What happens when I am found innocent of having a third fish over 18" in a court of law? Then what? Now can you see why tournament officials must make their own rulings in such cases. I would be at peace if the SD G, F & P and Mark Dorn measured the fish together, side by side, and made a ruling together. Then it would have been a non-issue and I would have fished days two and three.

As for me not fishing days two and three. That would have been that absolute wrong thing to do. I am appauld by those tournament anglers who suggest that. You never continue an event without a thorough and concise evaluation of a protest. Situations change. I was there to win. Starting from zero on day two gives a competitor a completely different mind set that greatly effects performance. The PWT ignored my multiple protest requestand as of right now they continue to ignore my request for resolve.

Chris Bahl

[Johnnie Candle]

Scott and Jimmy,

I couldn't agree more. I wish Chris would have finished the event. I stood on the stairs at Cedar Shore Resort on Wed night and Begged Mrs Bahl to talk Chris into fishing Thursday and Friday. It didn't work.

Since other professional sports have been used as examples, I will try as well. Could you imagine if every pro baseball player that thought he got a bad call at the plate or at first base quit for the rest of the game? There wouldn't be enough players to finish. We all know that there have been a lot of calls go the other way at tournaments. I refuse to say if they were right or wrong. It depends what side you are on. The fact remains that we as professionals must finish the game.

I do beleive that Chris could have salvaged the tournament and could have had a great year in the western division. No one will know for sure now. We all say, "There is always next year," but in this case that stinks.

Good luck to you Chris. I know you will have a great career regardless of this outcome. There is a ton of fishing left ahead this season. Tear 'em up and see ya at Mille Lacs.

Keep the line tight,

Johnnie Candle

[Did you really mean this]

You stated "It is not beyond thought that a tournament could accept and weigh a fish that the Game and Parks deems illegal."

Do you realize what you just said? Think what the discussion would be then?

[Dave in Mpls]

I read that to mean that it is possible that one party could measure a fish a hair under 18" and another party could measure the same fish a hair over 18"...nothing more, nothing less. What do you read it to mean - that the PWT possibly has no regard for state law?

Regards

[M.R.Fish]

Back the boat up! Less we forget what is at stake here is not the right or wrong of anyone involved. It is however the promotion of walleye fishing thru tornements and the immage we all have on the water. Let's hope that when big brother casts politics at the water you will reconize him and his actions for what the real ajenda is...... an end to organized fishing on his lake.

Been here before, you go Chris, need help advice or backing contact me thur Golden for my E-mail.

the're always bitin'

[Chris Bahl]

Dave in Mpls

That is exactly what I mean. Thank you!

My point is that "No two people measure a fish the same." There could have conceivably been several fished weighed in Chamberlain that one SD G, F & P officer or another would have deemed illegal. This is why I continuely state that in a tournament scenario that both the G,F & P and the tournament organizers make their own rulings. It would be great if they worked together (i.e. my suggestion of a Competition Committee at each event)!!

Thanks Again,

Chris Bahl

[EyeJacker]

Does not appear to me that Chris has tried to play the hero role for one nanosecond. He has much more the profile of the victim. But then the law, is the law, is the law, true? Well, I heard someone offer a challenge to that statement, not all that long ago, who at the time was the personification of the laws of the land. His challenge was to those who thought they could see, "It depends on what the meaning of is, is!" Of course that was only about sex, nothing as earth shaking as the length of a walleye. So here we are again, the law says they walleye IS 18", regardless of what the other witnesses thought they saw!
Just where is this "Blue Dress" now? My guess is that it swims at the bottom of Lake Francis Case. Case Dismissed?

Jack,
Declaring myself beyond reproach on this Post! :-)

[Chris Bahl]

Johnnie

Another guy I truly like and respect!!! Julie said you had her in a headlock! ( :

Bad scenario, the baseball one. Howabout this one. A golfer has a round that leads the field when it is thrown out because a of claim that he made a violation. The golfer is denied the right to a protest. Does the golfer continue the next day? For what? If the golfer's round is DQed through a protest process, then absolutly he continues. To not continue after a protest is unprofessional. To be denied the right to a protest for such high stakes is irresponsible and unprofessional.

I respect you post and thoughts. I hope you at least respect mine.

Thanks Buddy!!!

Chris

[FJH1]

It's very possible that two people could measure a fish differently. Remember, the fish had to be under 18" but not touch 18". It didn't necessarily have to even be OVER 18". The difference between being under 18" and touching the 18" line is infinitesimal.

Best Regards,

FJH

[800proX]

and in my humble opinion, if you have the fish that Chris did, I would never take the chance. If it was your only fish, something to consider taking a chance. But if it were me, and i had his bag, and I had one that was 17 63/64th's, it would go back know ing things could change by the time it is checked. I have been there and done that exact same thing. Also knowing that tournament anglers are not thought of highly by the DNR, I would always error on the side of safety. just my .02.

jeff

[Johnnie Candle]

Chris,

I do respect your decision and I truly hope something good comes out of it for you and for all of us. Personally, I would have fished.

Let's get this behind us and move forward. Walleye fishing has grown in leaps and bounds in the last few years. Let's keep it growing. Situations like this can keep all of us focused on the wrong part of the big picture. Granted, if a change comes about due to this things will be better. My point being, there are a lot of other things all of us could be working on instead of bringing this up again and again, myself included.

I am done with this topic until further called upon by my peers to offer an opinion. I wish you the best with this and the rest of the season, Chris. Keep your chin up and always fight for what YOU beleive.

Keep the line tight,

Johnnie Candle

[EyeJacker]

The PWT contest at Chamberlain, SD seems to be secondary to the main event. It would appear that the highly controversial DNR measurment(evidently no longer verifiable) varied from the "official" measurment by something in the neighborhood of the diameter of a hair. The question that begs to be asked is why would a DNR official take issue with something as minute as this at a time like this? There appears to be another contest being waged here. What is their message, I do not believe it is subliminal. Pehaps the organizers did not express the proper "Adulation to the Magi"
Jack

[Hawgeye]

I guess I can understand your post but these guys are competitors and often they need every ounce they can. Maybe Chris did not have a fish to fill that slot or could not get more than 13 inchers. I agree the easy and right thing was not to take a chance on a fish that was close. I have been burned by a DNR official that had a homeade measuring stick compared to one that I bought and they clearly read 1/8 to 1/4" different. My circumstance was with a crappie which is even smaller scale.

I just have to say I can understand why Chris went for it. I also feel that the SDF&G is making every effort to single out these guys to set examples to the world "don't mess with us, we are Boss hog or Buford T Justice"! Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for 99% of the officers, but there was likely one with a chip on his shoulder trying to prove his power by embarrassing a pro and this time namely Chris Bahl. By the sounds of it, he was not the only one that got hit. They don't deserve special treatment and I also think as a pro it is their responsibility to set examples for all fisherpeople. I just personally think Chris did not get a fair due process by what has been said here.

[Scott Fairbairn]

I believe that the PWT did make a ruling in this case. And it is a ruling that they have made consistently throughout the years. If the GFP or DNR or the DEC whichever it may be determines that the fish is illegal and issues a citation the rest of the basket is not weighed. It does not matter who measures it in what manner, if the governing body, in this case SD GFP rules that you are in violation the PWT DQ’s you for the day. Nothing is inconsistent in that stance.

“It is not beyond thought that a tournament could accept and weigh a fish that the Game and Parks deems illegal.” WHAT? This is exactly the type of stance that I was hoping that the public not see because you are not in the majority on this one. If the fish is ruled illegal by state officials it absolutely can’t be weighed. I respect you in many ways but on this one you are dead wrong. We tournament anglers must avoid the appearance that we are asking for special treatment. Again, the PWT has never waivered on the stance that if you have broken law you are out. I do not always see eye to eye with PWT officials and will take up many other banners against their judgement but in this case they have been consistent with 11 years of tournament policy.

As for fishing days two and three I would again respectfully disagree with you on your conclusion. You left two amateurs on the dock and cannot now, no matter how many witnesses you have, prove to anyone that you had the tournament won. I have had too many tournaments won after day one to know better.

I am sorry that I have to disagree with you so vehemently but I truly believe that you are sending the wrong impression to the general public on this unfortunate situation.

Scott Fairbairn #99

[Doug Burns]

Chris,

I have two short points to make.
1-In sports prostest and appeals of rulings are filed after the end of competition, not during competition (with the exeption of video replay which some sports have endorsed). The end of day one was not the end of the competition merely a break between periods.
2-I also misunderstood the rules(the previous year at Lake Sharpe) for measuring fish as given during the rules meeting and sought out Mark Dorn for clarification after the rules meeting. It is our job to clearly understand all the rules and abide by them.

I will offer one piece of advice. Stop fighting this battle in public forums such as this. Resolve it with the parties involved and then make a statement. We are all interested in the outcome.

Doug Burns

[Sheila]

This is driving me nuts!
Was the fish 18" with pinched tail or not??? :o

Here's what I gather from reading all the posts so far:

1.) The PWT made a big mistake by misinforming competitors at the rules meeting when they said that fish would be measured with fanned tail (despite SD law requiring pinched tail).

2.) The SD game warden may have made a bad call - pinched or fanned.

3.) Chris may have made a bad call bringing a questionable fish to weigh.

4.) The SD process (or law) that allowed that game warden to do what he did without a second judgment definitely could use some reform.

5). The withdrawal by Chris in protest was nice gesture, if no more than to bring the above (4) items to attention and promote future change beneficial to others in similar circumstances.

6.) Everyone makes mistakes.

In the end I just hope that everyone apologizes to everyone, more good lessons are learned, and measures are taken in the future which could help this kind of stuff from happening again.

Chris, I am sincerely very sorry for this happening to you. I wish you much MUCH better luck in your future fishing tournaments! ;-)

[Gonzo]

Jim Bell as well as others have suggested that they shouldn't go back to SD until the Game and Fish start treating them better.
If the agenda of the Game and Fish Department is to stop tournament fishing in SD,wouldn't that be giving them exactly what they want? If SD doesn't change the way they treat tournament anglers then we should just stop fishing there until they do? I can hear the SD Game and Fish now....Yahoo we sure showed them...look at em, they're scared to fish here anymore..hee hee ha ha ho ho.

That's not going to happen! Tournament Anglers are made of tougher stuff than to let the SD Game and Fish Department chase us away! Am I right or wrong?

Gonz

[Chris Bahl]

Scott

Respectfully, I don't think you and I are on the same page. I also don't believe you interpreted my statement about weighing an "illegal" fish the way it was meant. I do not believe you fully understand the points of competition I have raised. I would be more than happy to discuss further on the phone.

I am also sorry for the two amateur's that did not fish. However, that is an issue on the conscious of the PWT. I raised that concern Wednesday night. Again, this could have been avoided. No one wanted to fish worse than me Thursday morning. I ended up taking my two kids out. I would have even returned to the water on Friday, if the PWT would have acknowledged my protest and I would have been heard!!!

Scott, I hope that you will respect the argument of "Due Process." If not, again I would be interested in your thoughts. As competitors, it is almost a guarantee we will not always agree. However, I will always respect my fellow competitors, especially those who are not afraid to take a stand. For that I commend you Scott!

Chris

[Gilligan]

First off I congratulate Scott, Chris, Jonnie and some of the others, I wish others that frequent this site could have 'constructive and productive' disagreements and be civil about it.

My question here would be this... couldn't SD CO have dumped 'legal' fish and cause a DQ for Chris or another angler? Seems if the fish were illegal that CO should have issued a citation rather than dump the fish back in the lake.

Can't wait to meet and fish with some of you guys at Dunkirk NY in August. We don't have slot limits or overbearing CO's here but you may need to add another livewell or 2 to haul those hogs.

[Gary Korsgaden]

After reading the many comments regarding Chris Bahl's unfortunate occurance while weighing in at Chamberlain, I felt the need to respond. Having a long time history with the In-Fisherman and knowing many of the personalities envolved I lend a slightly different perspective. While some competive anglers have labeled me antitournament that really is not the case.I sincerely respect tournament anglers and what they sacrifice for
competition. But am not a supporter if tournament anglers expect special treatment or are above the States Game and Fish Laws.

I spend alot of angling hours in South Dakota and plan to continue. And always have been treated very graciously by Game Fish and Parks.

Chris your responsible to know the laws of states you fish in.
We sport anglers must do the same and abide by the rules, I wouldn't want it any other way. You did not realize the laws on determining a 18" walleye by law is a pinch tail not a fan tail.
If you had you would of asked the question at the rules meeting or some time before hitting the water to be sure. I am postive you agree on this. However Jim K. should of made sure all contestants were aware of the mistaken comment on the fan tail
at the rules meeting, and being sure all knew a legal fish is determined by a pinched tails prior to take off. It is PWT's
responsibility.

Tournament regs must coincide with State laws, if you disagree perhaps it is time to find private waters where tournaments can have their own set of rules.

As far as the Infisherman and the PWT staff. They must abide by
State Game and Fish rules no exception..It wouldn't be right for them to over ride a CO. You could of fished the next two days, what about the two amateurs that looked so forward to this and sat on shore? Did you think of them?

I will be perfectly frank that State Game and Fish agencies
hear the complaining from sport anglers all the time, tying up accesses, being treated rudely by professional anglers while on the water etc. I didn't believe it at first, but having fished Mille Lac's during a variety of tournaments including the PWT
I can tell you numerous instances where pro anglers were out of line. I purchase a license shouldn't I be able to enjoy my fishing in spite of a tournament on a particular body of water.
The past few years it has been increasingly difficult.To avoid this treatment we schedule our trips around tournaments.

So Chris I am not questioning your intergrity, honesty but I bet you have learned a valuable lesson. A small portion of sport anglers really care about competive angling. The NPAA is doing a good job keeping tournament angling and fisherman paliable for
us who just enjoy the great outdoors when we can. If they didn't I am afraid competive angling would have a tough road ahead.

Good luck in future tournaments.

Gary Korsgaden

gkorsgaden@qwest.net

[Chris Bahl]

Johnnie

Well said!! No one wants this resolved more than me. I am hoping to hear from the PWT tomorrow as I did not hear from them today. I could be in Brainard in six (6) hours if they requested!!

The solution seems simple to me, however it might drag on for many months if we get hard-headed.

Thanks Again Johnnie!

Chris

[WHERE'S THE PWT???]

How come the PWT hasn't stepped up to the plate and give their side of the story?? or is it keeping paying the entry fees and sign up for another years subscription? It would sure be nice to hear from the boys who put this tournment together!

[Chris Bahl]

Gary

Great Post!! I agree. Your thoughts are well received and I commend your stance.

Chris Bahl

[800proX]

I think what needs to be established is some formal form of appeal at the time the fish is measured. First, if the CO,or the PWT first deem the fish over, have the other, and then even the contestant measure and see what is come up. At that time if no consensus is made (like OJ trying on a glove) either a judge (be it another CO or official) or another contestant measure and go with that - period.

I agree that if the CO just measured it, said illegal, and threw back in the lake so quickly was wrong, but we cannot deviate from the laws. The CO must be willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the judge or jury, because even he/she is not above the law, and I know they would not check within a 1/64th of an inch on the docks to your average weekender. Not saying it has not happened, just not likely. These tournaments are the livelihood of some people, and just a quick measurement and toss in the lake is not the right way to practice his/her job IMHO.

jeff

[Al]

"1-In sports prostest and appeals of rulings are filed after the end of competition, not during competition (with the exeption of video replay which some sports have endorsed). The end of day one was not the end of the competition merely a break between periods."


I've attended local baseball games played under protest. They are protested from a certain point, say the top of the fifth with one out. The protest begins then.

The other example mentioned that there wouldn't be enough players.....If similar actions take place in other tournaments, and PWT does nothing, and you pro anglers don't stick together....You are right....there won't be enough players. It's a joke that the fish was not remeasured....that it was turned back so fast.....and that PWT sits on its hands. One reason Ray Scott did so well at building BASS to where it was when he left is that fishermen actually had some pull. Not special treatment above the law...but legit gripes were dealt with. Based upon the statements Chris has collected....PWT...SD DNR have egg on their face for not remeasuring.

Even if you don't think Chris did the right thing dropping out, the situation could have been handled better by the PWT and SD DNR. Their little rush to turn the fish back may have kept someone from legitamately winning the thing. I think Chris needs to do what is right for him. If you guys in the pro ranks were serious about looking out for one another...you'd back him....I can't wait until it's your turn to get in the barrel with something like this.

[Scott Fairbairn]

Chris,

My grasp of the universe and all it entails may be limited. My understanding of rules of competition of many of the sports of which you are an expert may be infinitesimal by relative comparison. I will grant you that you understand the finer points of proper protest in golf and that on this subject I am no expert. However, when it comes to the sport at hand I can tell you that I do not need your help in interpreting what my experience of fishing tournaments and making a living as a professional angler over the last 10 years have taught me. I do understand the rules of PWT competition as well as or better than most and in this circumstance your attack on them and your secondary desires to have the NPAA involved are unfounded.
I will state this one more time very clearly. The PWT has always consistently disqualified a days catch for an angler that receives a citation for game and fish violations. They have done this without exception. I do not expect that they would make exception for you and neither would any of the other competitors. While the other sports, of which you are very knowledgeable, have rules, which often receive protests over interpretation, our sport is different. We have rules and LAWS by which we must abide and over which we have no control. The PWT cannot and should not make exception for how they deal with GFP laws.

If you have a beef with anyone it may be with the SD GFP. If you can prove that you were not granted “due process” by the officer in question I would assume that you will likely receive a hefty settlement. I wish you well on this front. My point on finishing the tournament is that it would make the case that you could have won that much stronger. Also, don’t underestimate the image and impact that leaving the amateurs shorthanded has on sympathy in this issue.

I realize that this experience has been difficult for you to accept. But take the advice of one who has been doing this for quite a while now and learn from your mistake. There are plenty more tournaments to fish.

Scott Fairbairn #99

[EyeJacker]

Always remember,when in doubt PWT,that is "Pinch Walleye Tails". Somehow it appears they may be pinching yours on this one.
Keep your spirits up!

Jack
Where is South Dakota anyway? :-)

[snake eyes]

Chris: P.W.T. rules given orally by directors at every tournanment that I have ever fished, involving special circumstances, i.e. slot limits ,no wake zones ect. Any angler ,pro or am, that is issued a ticket or citation,notwithstanding the legality of said charge, shall be subject to a zero weight for that day. You believe that you were denied due process by the PWT. I must respectfully disagree.Due Process is afforded to all citizens of the United States for actions taken by governmental entities against citizens. While I may tend to agree that the State of South Dakota,acting through one of there agents of Game & Fish may have violated your due process rights.The PWT is a private entity.Therefore,the PWT owes you no protection under the Due Process Clause. If you were given a bogus citation by SDGF,and the PWT relied on an unjustified citation,to disallow your weight it truly is a travesty of justice.However,that's the system that is in place.I do not think it is feasible for the PWT to rectify these circumstances. In order to do so would have created greater inequity for all involved. How could the PWT make you whole again? What remedy do you want from the PWT? The PWT cannot or could not allow your pending citation to proceed to trial and final dispositon before intervening and making a determination on your situation immediately.In a perfect world,the tournament would have to have been stopped,all fish weighed and measured,a court determination in your favor(several months from now)and the conclusion of the tournament held probably sometime in October.This is not feasible.This is not equitable for anyone. The PWT is not under the same rules as the state of South Dakota when it comes time to be fair to you.The PWT makes the rules. The PWT can implement and enforce the rules as they see fit.There is no due process,equal protection,presumption of innocence,right to counsel,right against self incrimination,or any other constitutional afforded protection when we deal with an exclusive private actor.Is it fair based on your circumstances,probably not. If I were in your shoes I would be angry and seeking vindication of this outrageous situation (assuming the fact you were wronged by the State). Yet your rage should be directed toward the State of South Dakota not the PWT.You will get your day in court and I hope you kick butt and take names clear to Pierre.Reports of the treatment received by PWT anglers participating in the tournament is a "black-eye" only to the State government of South Dakota.The PWT should never conduct another tournament within the borders of this state. Chris I can tell by the tenor of your posts that you are a credit to tournament anglers everywhere,as are all the PWT guys that I have had the honor of meeting. John Eisele ,(snakeeyes)

[easymoney]

After reading all the different opinions over the past several days i agree with Doug Burns, that this dispute should not be held on a public forum.This is a very unfortunate situation, hopefully the outcome will be more pleasant. Good luck in future tournaments Chris.

[WallyGetter]

After reading all the posts on this subject I find it hard not to give my .02 so here goes. I believe that Chris got cheated by the Game Warden that measured the fish. Why would Chris take such a chance on a fish he was not sure of, I understand that Chris had a large basket of fish, why risk being DQed when you know you have the 1st place basket, even without the fish in question? Why did the Warden return the fish to the water so quickly? To get rid of the evidence would be my guess, before anyone from the PWT could remeasure and confirm Chris and other anglers opinion that the fish was under 18". It was stated that as many as eight people around the tank testified that the fish was not 18", even more proof as to why the warden got rid of it. I also gather from reading between the lines that the Warden involved was out to get tourny fisherman. I also agree with Chris by not continuing to fish, the PWT should have been called to the tank the very moment that speculation was taking place, and came to Chris's aide, to prove him wrong or right. By not taking any action they showed very little concern for their particapants and even less backbone. Chris had no choice but to withdraw in protest. He was robbed and the PWT let it happen. I hope that PWT will not let this happen again, and I also hope that we all learn from such a misfortunite event. I'm not out to bash anyones own opinions or posts, just simply stating mine. Thank You and good luck Chris. WallyGetter

[mnjimcarp]

doug,

thanks for your good sense. this post is really getting old.

[John]

Someone please explain to me what was done wrong?

Participant decided to weigh questionable fish. He was basing this on an improper method of measurement. The fish was too long based on State Game Laws. Perticipant was fined for ilegal fish. Maybe I am missing something??

Is in not his responsibility to know the laws? That is all it comes down to. He did not know the laws. Ignorance of the laws is not an excuse. It is too bad he lost possible money, it is too bad he was embarrassed.

No one made him weigh the fish. He chose to.

[Craig B.]

You're right, you are missing something here. Read all the post then post logically.

[John]

Craig,

I have read all the posts. You didn't answer my question. Why should a decision, that a fish was deemed by state law to be too long, be reversed? If the fish was actually under 18", then I agree there was an injustice done. What I have gathered by reading these posts, as I was not there for the weigh-in, is that the fish was legal by Chris'fanned tail, and ilegal by the States pinched tail, and the States laws overule any other rule.

I am not trying to be ahole, I was just laying out the basics of the argument.

[CraigB]

I was beginning to think Whaleye hit it right on the head with you. Now I think you're coming around. I don't think anyone is looking for a decision, as it pertains to the tournament, to be reversed. There was no evaluation nor decision made on the part of the PWT. That is the argument. Chris measured the fish based on the rules that were presented at the rules meeting. The DNR measured differently. A serious misunderstanding, the PWT mislead at least one of their competitors, and then denied a basic request for a protest review. No one is arguring about the law or that anyone should go against the law. In fact everyone whoi has commented on this subject including Chris and several other pro's agree that the law is the law. The PWT made several mistakes that quite possibly cost a guy the tournament. They have ignored the situation. Houston, we have problem here!!!

[John]

I agree with you. PWT made a mistake in what they told their anglers. But I don't think that is a good excuse for Chris. I am sorry this happened, but Chris cannot blame the PWT for not knowing how the rule was actually stated.(Pinched Vs. Fanned)

[Scott Richardson]

I wasn't there so I have no idea what length the fish was and neither does anyone else but the pro, his amateur and the cop. If the angler is right, the amateur should be able to back him up in court, no problem. There are too many posts here for me to determine if the amateur in the boat that day has voiced an opinion.

Regardless, I don't understand why the cop or PWT or NPAA are taking it on the chin here. PWT certainly would have been on thin ice trying to step in and second guess a cop. They have no legal standing to do so. What the cop says goes at the time. NPAA would be even more pressed to get involved this long after the tournament.

I won't make any friends saying this, but the police officer was doing his job. This was a judgement call and that's what he is paid to do. They make judges to decide if he is right or not. Thank God we live in a country where a police officer's word is not final. Good luck in court. May the truth win out whatever it is.

I am a little taken aback by the negativity shown here. It seems very mean spirited. If the angler wants the benefit of the doubt, the cop should get the same consideration. The judge and other witnesses will find the truth, and we can disagree without being disagreeable outside the courtroom.

There would be no chance to weigh the other fish in the basket after one was deemed illegal. The angler is DQ'ed for the day, at least that's my understanding of the PWT rules. Pros know that's the risk of bringing fish close to the slot to the scales. With so much riding on it, why is there any confusion about the way the measurement is done? At PWT rules meetings _ in fact, any tournament circuit I have attended _ the method has always been the same _ pinch the tail and sweep it back and forth. The longest measurement is the one taken.

Regardless of how long the fish was or wasn't, why a pro would walk away and leave two amateurs without a ride and lose two days' weight toward the final standings at the end of the year certainly seems a valid question. The amateurs didn't cause the controversy. They should not get caught in the crossfire. Maybe there should be a rule that a pro who withdraws solely for personal reasons of this sort absent a valid family or business emergency must refund the pro-rated entries of the amateurs who lost out. Certainly, the PWT should not be liable if someone merely quits.

As for non-enforcement of laws during sporting events, tournaments cannot be safe zones. In fact, some could make the argument sportsmen and women should hold to a higher standard of ethics to raise the bar for everyone. Maybe we'd see fewer fights and more skating in hockey and more pitching, fielding and hitting in baseball.

I really don't mind paying out-of-state prices for licenses. None of them seem too out of line considering the cost to provide the terrific fishing available in so many states. And people who fish in my state from elsewhere must do the same. The cost of a license is only a fraction of the overall cost of a fishing trip.

Have a great day. May all your tournaments go smoothly.

[Hawgeye]

As for those of you who think this should be a discussion held in private, PWT and these kinds of tournaments are there because of the public. If there were no public interest, there would be no PWT. The PWT holds tournaments for anglers to make a name for themselves and therefore acquire sponsorships to promote products. Popular PWT anglers demand the highest sponsorship and therefore gain the most monetary reward. Those of you that think this should be a private discussion must feel you are better than us Joe Blow weekend warriors?

I do beleive that some may be saying that to defend Scott F.'s condescending remarks to Chris. Just because Scott is some holier than thow "pro", that doesn't make him the almighty ruler of knowledge. If CEO's of businesses take that approach to change because they have been there for "X" amount of years and know the "way" it should be done rather than trying to improve their company, they will not be CEO for long. I think this applies here as well.

I am not trying to single out Scott. He is a decorated pro and I am sure a great person. This is a very interesting discussion and teaches everyone alot about private as well as tournament fishing. I wish there was more of this. I have enjoyed every post.

My opinion on everything boils down to the PWT should have at least come forward with a rules statement addendum to retract the Fanned tail to pinched to meet the State regulations. Since I understand that was not done officially, Chris has an arguement. He does not however have any argument to the SDG&F unless his fish was not 18"

[Pam Reynolds]

Scott

My husband and I have been watching this and I finally hasd to reply.

I disagree with you. It sounds as though you and some other of your peers are not standing by your fellow competitor, thus showing unprofessionaliam on your part. I am so shocked and disappointed with the PWT's actions to this point I hope they pay a hefty price. However, it sounds as though all Chris wants is change to insure this doesn't happen again. Chris did NOT quit!! The PWT quit on him and turned their back. That is horrible. I believe those amateur's have a case against the PWT. They refund the entry and expenses of everyone involved and make change for the good of everyone!

Pam

[Scott Fairbairn]

Hawgeye,

I did not intend for my comments to Chris to be "holier than thou". In fact I think that if you reread the posts you will find that it was actually Chris telling me (as a rookie pro) that he understands the rules of competition and that I don't. He furthur offered to explain them to me. All I was getting at in that post is that I am no expert on most subjects but this is one that I happen to as much about as anyone. Chris made a mistake and is applying his knowledge from other sports that do not have to abide by State Game and Fish laws. Most games have rules ours has tournament rules, as well as, Game and Fish LAWS.

You mentioned that I was taking the "Almighty ruler of knowledge" stance and that if CEO's of corporations took that approach to change because they have been ther for X number of years ... they would not be there for long. I do not consider myself the "Almighty ruler of knowledge" and I don't think that it is a fair analogy. I am not by any means stating that the PWT is perfect and should avoid change. In fact if you talk to many other pros you will find I have been a crusader for change (most often ignored). However, Chris was trying to tell me (in a condescending tone) that he understands the rules of competition in professional fishing tournaments (specifically PWT competition) better than I do and that he could help me understand. Chris does not know the rules of competition better than I do. My commentary on how long I have been at this is simply a reference to the fact that I have seen this situation dozens of times and the PWT has ruled consistantly each and every time. Chris does not have the benefit that I do of having seen this happen over the years. He is new.

Chris may have some interesting ideas on how to improve the sport but that does not mean that we should circumvent current and consistent PWT policy to make the change. This is not an issue that can be made retroactive.

I am sorry that I left everyone with the impression that I am a know it all. I don't know it all I simply know as much as anyone when it comes to the sport in which I make my living.

I sincerely apologize,

Scott Fairbairn #99

[Hawgeye]

Scott,

Point well taken. I was more caught up in the heat of the discussion and apologize for making any inaccurate analogies. I just don't want to see a rookie's opinions be dismissed because he is new. He may have made some poor decisions, but it does sound like this issue could help others because it was brought out in the open. Most of Chris's comments have been, in my opinion, more in the interest that what happened was not handled well. He did not originate this post but since it was stated, decided to respond. I applaud him for that.

All of you Pros that have taken the time to post on this message board have gained much more respect by doing so. The people that frequent this site are a good population of the group of fisherman that you all represent. These are more of the hardcore anglers that respect what you pros have done, respect your opinions and welcome your knowledge.

I don't think Chris intended to be condescending to you. I did not take it that way. I respect you immensley for your fishing knowledge and abilities and the fact that you are open with your opinions. This discussion has been educational for me and I am sure for others as well as future and present PWT professionals. I personally have much respect for those of you that are willing to discuss this openly. Thank you for that.

I agree that what is done is done. Secondly, I agree that the amateurs got the raw deal on this. I also beleive that the PWT should take a stance on this so it improves the policies and rules so that it can be avoided in the future.

For all of you pros that post here, please continue and invite your fellow professionals to join. You have all made this a better site no matter what your opinions are. I will also be cheering for both Scott and Chris in the future!

[Jeff Wood #641]

Scott,

I believe that you have handled this situation very well.... I was there I heard all the bull that when on during and after and I think its time to learn from this (all of us) and move on...... I will comment that if anyone went to the weigh in of the local tourny on Saturday that 2 anglers were DQ'd and cited for there offense much the same that Chris did, with fish that were arguable the same size (I watch them being measure and the to just touched the line) Those anglers dealt with there adversity even though either would have won that tournment as well.....

I believe the PWT did all they could do under the circumstances. Its just to bad Chris did not fish the other 2 days of the tourny and gave himself additional weight for the west.....

Mark Courts also was DQ'd for being less than a minute late and he kept fishing and he now has 22lbs more weight than Chris because he did fish the last 2 days.......

Thats all I have to say

See ya at Mille Lacs

Jeff

[Jimmy Bell]

Haweye,
I have watched and fished against Scott for many years, and on this I have to agree with him. Scott does have a tremendous amount of knowledge on PWT consistancy. There are very few anglers that can hold a candle to Scott when it comes to rules, laws, and ethics. He is consistantly on the top because he understands and follows these rules, laws, and ethics. The PWT stayed its normal course and was consistant.
I spoke with Chris last night for quite some time on many of the issues that have been posted. He appreciates all the input that we give him, and I am sure appreciates the experienced input that Scott is giving. I hope Chris will get back on line and let everyone know what his true motive is, and what he wants for a resolution. I believe many of you are misunderstanding it! I spoke to him about it, but it is his place to try and put it in writting so we all understand.
As stated in my first post, it is our responsibility as Professional Anglers to follow the LAW, not what we hear or believe to be true, but the LAW! The PWT stating American Fisheries Standard Fanned Tail is moot. And just for the record they DID state the following morning that it would be pinched tail.
As for Mrs. Reynolds post above, we need to understand what it is we should be behind him for? He was issued a citation and according to SD broke the law, the PWT was consistant in there ruling, I ask where it is that we should stand? Would everyone of us agree that the GF&P officers were over zealous during the Tournament, absolutely!
People also ask if we should have a committee or board that would include the PWT, a Fisheries Officer and someone else. This is a fine line for a Professional Angler. The apprearance would be that we would be getting special treatment and we battle enough bad press the way it is. An Officers ruling is binding in Tournament competition, can it be fought after the fact, YES, and it should be! Could and should the PWT, the NPAA and the Anglers have done anything different, I do not believe so. Should the PWT be working with Chris to better understand his issue and discussing it, YES they should, but they followed the same rules they have for the past 11 years.

Thanks Again!
Jimmy Bell

[Scott Richardson]

I'm not "standing by" anyone cause I wasn't a witness to what happened and refuse to jump to conclusions.

[John]

Good Job. That is what I was getting at, but you stated it more clearly than me. Thanks for your response.

[Scott Fairbairn]

Thanks,

Mike Effle also finished the event and should be commended.

Scott Fairbairn #99

[Just the facts....]

Scott,
Let's move from the volatile subjective to the rational subjective facts.

Does the PWT use the Judge ruler as THE standard rule to follow in ALL fish measurements?

Did the SD G&F not use a Golden Rule ruler to measure the same fish?

If this is the case then there is clear blame as all tourney anglers know, not all brands of rulers measure the same in that very fine measurement situation.

Let me summarize all these posts and hopefully cover this issue, THE FACTS .

It is possible to have the SD G&F measure a long fish using the Golden Rule, and the PWT measure a legal weigh fish using the Judge.
If the Official ruler that all PWT anglers use is the Judge and the ruler against which they will have their tournament success and personal image based (This ticket is more than just a ticket, it has the possibility of tarnishing ones image and career.) then the PWT has an issue for not advising ALL anglers that there is a different OFFICIAL RULER.
If it is true that the Golden Rule was used then there may be two variables in this issue. 1)Comparison of that Exact ruler that was used by SD G&F(Golden Rule) and the PWT (Judge) and 2) The exact method and how hard the Game officer worked the fish to get it to "go over"

As an avid angler, I know that there are things you can do to "stretch" a fish to make it go long. Not just laying it on a scale and measuring it. So those of you who say 18" is 18" are not understanding what can occur if someone really wants a fish to gain "ENOUGH" to make it a illegal fish.

Do we as tournament anglers need to worry about having a possibly vindictive (apparently in this case) Game Official standing at the weigh site waiting for a big basket to try and "make a statement"?
To those who say Chris made a mistake by bringing a questionable fish to the scale I counter by saying did you see the Official measure the fish? If he picked that fish I would bet that there were many other "MARGINAL" fish that would not have been "legal" if the SD G&F Official in question had measured it.

You also stated PWT consistancy. If we truly want consistancy then that SD G&F Official should have measured ALL fish for that tourney because cherry picking that and other fish would be a judgement as I would suspect he was not personally measuring and scutinizing every fish.

I believe that a protest should demand a reply, there was an issue of major magnitude at stake.There apparently was no addressing of this protest. Where does that responsibility lie? An angler paying for an entry does have rights due him by the organization running the tourney or event, correct?


SUMMARY
Folks, Let's look at all the facts because not all things are always as they seem. The problem now is where this is taking Chris and his image. Sad but true, Perception is reality to those not in the know on all the facts. Chris is a tourney angler, a credit to his profession as we can see by the handling of this issue. Not a hero, but a guy who is standing up for what he feels is right.

Let's let Chris take this to whereever it leads and not have us drag him, Scott, Jimmy or anyone else through the mud on this.

I agree we need a public forum to discuss this and other issues but remember the commonality that we all have:

WE FISH BECAUSE WE ENJOY DOING IT< TALKING ABOUT IT< AND IMMERSING OURSELVES IN IT (sometimes).

Toothy Smiles everyone.... Toothy Smiles

[Jesse Fletcher]

Fish measuring standards, SD laws and rules interpretation aside, I do know this much.

As an amateur that has fished 7 PWT events, I have been constantly taught about sportsmanship. Team work is strived and re-enforced. The PWT is an educational experience in both fishing and tournament environments. We know that due to boat problems, sickness, and things beyond anyone's control that we might not be able to fish all 3 days. We know that some fish we might have kept, a Pro will return. We accept these things.

In my OPINION, Chris's decision to NOT fish is something we, as amateurs, should not have to except or have to deal with. Although I understand Chris's right to his principles, this can not be allowed to happen again.

I would hope that the PWT would also ensure that the penalties for such things in the future would make a Pro think twice before doing this ever again.

[800proX]

woohoo, that is what i said, and a lot of others all along - 18" is 18".

I still contend since walleye tournament angling is elevating at a very rapid pace, these tournament directors (RCL, PWT, etc...)and the NPAA should start to consider some of the ramifications of cases like this. The pros need a governing body in which stands behind them, and we must all accept the responsibilities of our own actions. NASCAR is going through this same explosion in growth, albeit on quite a larger scale, but when one (tony stewart most recently) acts outs, the whole circuit does not need to be drug through. What we are dealing with here is an agency (DNR, GF&P etc...) that is above our tournament coordinators. Optimally it would be beneficial to have 2 CO's on the dock and have them measure the fish if in question. Because even if the PWT, NPAA or the like says it is legal, they still are not the law. But the pros also would benefit knowing that some form of governing body is there to help them, work with CO's, and overall present an image of just not receiving dues. Once again, NASCAR has a sanctioning body that drivers look up to, abide by, and can expect as the final ruler. We need to have that working along with the local law enforcements for this to elevate and become truly great. I need not explain how the BASS organizations are doing it, but there might be a good place to start looking.

But most of all - If in even the slightest doubt - throw it back. It just is not worth the risk. We all have to accept our actions and deal with them.

jeff
npaa#662

[EyeJacker]

With all due respect, how can you be sure that he brought in a fish that measured over 18"? The measurment was one man's opinion. If it was, indeed, that close to the 18" mark, the position of the measurer's head with respect to the point of measurement could distort accuracy of the reading. In this age of technology, from which this sport has benefitted so greatly, it would seem to me that, in the interest of accuracy, the organization could improve the measument process significantly. Even a panel of judges would be superior to this process.
Jack

[Jigger]

Mike

I am embarrassed for you. You just publically attacked a guy as President of the NPAA!!!! Chris has embarrassed no one, if fact he has gained my respect leaps and bounds. I am withdrawing my membership from the NPAA!!! You will be receiving a letter from me.

I am in shock. I hope all read this and see the true Mike McClelland and NPAA.

Jim

[Twister]

THANK YOU!!for your comments. You just proved what has been trying to be said. NO!!!support from the NPAA or the PWT in this matter.
Maybe change is needed and it took something like this to open some eyes.

[Scott Fairbairn]

Just the facts,Because you posted the message to me I will respond accordingly.

The PWT uses the Judge ruler as its official measurement device. Did the GP us the Golden Rule? I do not know the answer to this question other than to say the point is moot. The law is the law. If the GFP uses Golden rule it is our responsibility to know that aspect of this game. If we do not do our homework we shouldn’t complain about not doing well on the test. How many trick questions did we all answer on tests in high school.

You mention a PWT responsibility and I tend to agree with you to the point that the PWT is doing us a favor. However, if Mark Dorn had stood up at the rules meeting and mistakenly stated that instead of the event being a one fish per angler over 18” tournament it would instead based on PWT rules would be one over 20” would the warden care if all your fish were 19.5 inches? Another example might occur in Minnesota. What if we get to Mille Lacs and in reading the rules Mark Dorn states that PWT rules allow for the use of a maximum of two lines per angler. Should we blame Mark if we get a ticket for using two lines in a one line state?

In response to the question do we as tournament anglers need to worry about vindictive game wardens trying to make a statement. In South Dakota we do. People have asked why isn’t the NPAA doing anything for Chris. We did. We held an NPAA meeting on Sunday night and discussed at length how to deal with the situation of overbearing wardens in South Dakota. After long discussion it was generally agreed that the best way to deal with them would be to give them no reason at all to be against us. We all agreed that we should tow the line and avoid any possible confrontation. If Chris were a member of the NPAA he might have attended and perhaps would have made a different decision on bringing the fish to the scale. Unfortunately he is not and did not.

You brought up the subject of PWT consistency and the belief that the SD GFP official should have measured all fish. First of all, the PWT has no control over what the SD GFP does – they are the law. Second, the PWT has CONSISTANTLY disallowed weight for the day given this circumstance over the 11 years of existence. The first tournament they ever held had a slot limit issue to deal with and they have been consistant all along. Third, the SD GFP watched literally thousands of fish go by over three days and only “made and example” out of three anglers. By any reasonable statistical analysis one would have to assume that those three fish were likely over. Too many other fish did not raise an eyebrow. Finally, many of us made the right decision not to bring close fish to the scales. In fact, on day two I personally released a dozen fish that were so close I had my amateur doing a double take. I thought he was going to dive in after a few of them. I am not alone. Talk to many of the veterans fishing the circuit and they will tell you the same story. The right decision was made literally hundreds of times over the course of the event. Chris made the wrong one and will have to live with the consequences.

As far as the protest and lack of response. I do believe that the PWT officials should talk to Chris. However, their policy on this issue has been the same all along and really needs no explanation. Perhaps the PWT needs to review their policy but the rules and laws at the time of the infraction cannot just be changed retroactively because someone believes the rule doesn’t make sense. Last year at Lake Sharpe it became clear that the PWT rules and policy for dealing with weather were inadequate. The rules were later defined and changed. But the rules at Lake Sharpe were the rules and everyone had to deal with them.

You mentioned that we needed to take the discussion to just the facts. I agree:

FACT: Chris Ball brought a close fish to the scales in front of a game warden that determined he was breaking the law.
FACT: The PWT always disallows weight for the day for violation of game and fish laws—always.

Scott Fairbairn #99

[EDDY]

Well said Scott!! You have just shown the world the true "un-professional" that you are. Believe it or not, this is not about you. I glad to see that the rest of the angling world now can see who Scott Fairbairn is. Congratulations!

I know Chris and I know you. Chris is the President and CEO of a large corporation. At no time do I believe he was being "condescending." However, you did not show any respect for your peer in your "holier than thou" attempt to demean him with the term "rookie." Are you kidding me. Scott, I have known you for years. Give it up and grow up.

EDDY

[CraigB]

WOW!

I assure I will NEVER be an NPAA member now. My first reaction to McClelland's post was laughter. Now I am shocked.

NPAA = "Non-Professional Angler's Association"

Craig

[Fish-on]

Mike I agree that 18 inches is 18 inches, but how does anyone really know that the fish was 18 inches? As a tournament director I always give anglers an opportunity to compare their rulers with the offical ruler (the Judge) before an event. Who says all Judge rulers are 18 inches exactly and how can any of us really know? Does the SD GFP have an offical ruler that they measure every fish with across that state?

You might be surprised to find that many rulers are up to 1/4-inch off. I see it all the time in plastic rulers. People put those stickers that they get from the DNR on their boat or their tacklebox. Some of them stretch slightly due to the temperature when they are applied. Some of them shrink after being in the sun all summer. I've seen them be as much as 1/2-inch off either way! Tape measures can take longer measurements when measuring over the top of the fish than lying flat and measuring a fish that's lying on it. I've seen Golden Rule measuring boards be as much as a 1/2-inch off because they were stepped on in the boat and either shortened or lengthened a little. As you know, the golden rule has a bend in the end and the Judge has rivets, making it virtually immovable. Any golden rule could be easily altered by 1/8-inch and know one would ever know but the person who did it. Plus the size of the fish would magnify the length disparity because of the height the fish's jaw hits on the end of the ruler.

To say that 18 inches is 18 inches totally misses the point. Does even the Pentagon know exactly how long 18 inches is? I could go to every store and catalog and buy every brand of fish measuring device and they would all be different! There are too many variables here. Any overzealous Conservation officer with a anti-tournament attitude (and there are a few) could put a world of hurt on anglers with close-measuring fish if the wanted to make things difficult for tournaments. Especially if he's allowed to use a Golden Rule, which is easy to alter.

For those others who seem to be confused about fanned tail versus pinched etc. FYI--It states right in the IWTT rules that all fish are measured on a Judge ruler and that they are measured with the tail pinched and the mouth closed. A fan tail would be one that is in a natural position. Pinching the tail and sweeping it across the line is acceptable. It seems that many anglers are not on the same page about this and it's time for some sort of an industry standard that the DNRs and anglers can agree on. Could this be something that the NPAA could spearhead?

I'll tell you this for sure: If I were a Judge, I would throw this thing out of court because no one is going to be able to prove how long 18 inches is, and no one is going to be able to prove how long that fish was.

What a crazy deal.

Bernie Barringer

[Scott Fairbairn]

Eddy,

I do believe if you re read Chris's post you will have a different view. He clearly stated that I did not know what I was talking about. I respect Chris immensely for his intelligence and understanding of a wide variety of subjects. Spevifically his understanding of sports marketing. However, when he tells me that I do not understand the rules of competition in the sport in which I have competed for a long time and that he as a newcomer can explain them to me I will take great offense. I do know the rules of play in the sport in which we are competing and believe that Chris is directing his efforts at the wrong group. The law is the law and the PWT policy is clear. If Chris has a beef with the SD GFP I wish him well. That is all.

You mention that you have known me for years. Eddy, I do not know you by your handle. Please let me know who you are so that I might rectify your opinion. If you do know me well you also know that I am a Hawk for fairness.

Scott Fairbairn #99

[K. Bruer]

Being the "amateur" who was supposed to fish with Chris on day three, I was disappointed with that you decided not to fish the tournament out. I found out through "rumors" that you were no longer fishing the tournament. Mark Dorn confrimed it on Friday (a.m.). Because of this decision, your chances for a West Division title seem to have gone by the wayside.

While I can appreciate your viewpoint & position on this matter, seeing you pleasure fishing on the water at the very same time you are "protesting" the tournament, doesn't seem to be the proper place to be.

As far as the way fish are measured, we (pro/amateur's) each received at least one copy of the South Dakota regulations which clearly (page 20) show that the tail is to be "pinched" when measuring length. They also where available at registration.

Measuring fish at the PWT station (by my observations) seem to change by the individual. Maybe two "officials" need to be present at all times when measuring. I realize that each fish may be different, but the way they are verified should remain constant.

Hope all is resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

[EDDY]

Scott

You have clearly jumped to a negative conclusion on Chris' remarks to you. I have reread them and believe they were very well written with the utmost respect for you.

I am disappointed in you words. I have fished with you and I will be e-mailing you. I cannot believe your shallow, short-sided approach to this. This is not about Chris. I have called him and I am very impressed with his stand and solution for all this. Have you called him? Do you know him?

Think!

EDDY

[Scott Fairbairn]

Eddy,

I do know Chris and am looking forward to hearing from you

Scott Fairbairn #99

[tinboat]

Well said Mike, Ive seen similar cases out here on the Columbia where anglers were DQ'd for short fish...18" is 18"..plain and simple, Ive been in the same boat where I have had questionable fish and had to make a decision to weigh or not weigh them, and while the stakes were much lower, its still the risk vs. reward ratio that determines the answer. In my opinion, any angler receiving a citation should be DQ'd regardless of the nature of the violation. Quitting and leaving the 2 amauters on the dock the last 2 days is unexcusable, you can bet they arent too happy having wasted their time and money.

[Gary Parsons]

This thread has been unbelievable. Tournament fishing is a tough sport, full of decisions. Constant decisions. I had at least six fish that were close to 18 inches the first day alone and not one of them were brought to stage, they were released immediately. Why? Because I did not want to be DQed! Guess what, I'll bet that there were 100's of other fish that were released for the same reason. A black and white rule like an 18 inch size limit is a hard and fast rule. Break it you are out. Period. Now for all this hoopla about fanned tails, etc...that's all fine and dandy. The simple fact remains is that Chris had to be aware that he had a risky fish. He chose to weigh it (I don't know why) and he paid the price for being overzealous. Now UNDERSTAND if he would have been allowed to weigh a third fish over 18 inches, he would have cheated all of the other competitors who did not push that rule and stayed within the bounds of the tournament rules and state law. For those that attended this tournament, we all could all see that the SD F&G was out to harrass this group. I got checked four times, uncluding by one in plain clothes. Word was that there were eight CO's checking the tournament anglers including Looney from Pierre (the fish were biting up there also but he was in Chamberlain pursuing his favorite pastime, that being the harrassment of tourney guys). My point is that it was obvious to all that we were under close scrutiny by fish and game. MORE REASON NOT TO BRING IN A FISH THAT PUSHED THE LIMIT. The CO's watched the vast magority of the fish being weighed, hundreds that were close, but only ticketed two. Chris is guilty of poor judgement, poor tournament decisions and by quitting, poor sportsmanship. He is a rookie pro in the PWT and as such might make a mistake or two along the way. We all have. But you learn, become a better decision maker and go on. Not take anyone that doesn't agree with you to court! For those with different opinions that's what makes this country great. This was mine and MANY of the competitors that I have talked to feel the same as I do.

[tbomn]

This post has been on the edge of a character assassination a couple of times. I understand the issues, and I understand the opinion sides, but lets not start going past facts and opinions.
Maybe you all need to step back and take a few deep breaths. That's all I am going to say.........;-)



"I respect faith, but doubt is what gives you an education."
Wilson Mizner

Good Fishin'
TBO/MN

[Ms.Eye]

I agreed with almost everything you said until you accused Chris of "unsportsmanlike" behavior. You are dead wrong on that.

[Finally]

I have started to see a trend here. Guys like Gary Parsons, Mike McClelland, Scott Fairbairn, Johnnie Candle, Jimmie Bell....They all have said the same thing. Chris made a mistake. I personally do not feel they have degraded Chris in any fashion. I am pretty positive in saying that all of the names listed above probably made mistakes early in their careers also.
I also think Chris has realized that he made a mistake. May be he has not quite excepted it yet. This idea of getting someone else to measure the fish,,,,,, I do not get it. If the game warden called it to long, nobody can change that. Mark Dorn cannot walk up to a Game Warden and say, "wait, I have not measured the fish yet." The Game Warden has the final say. Even if Dorn measured the fish, the Game Warden would still have issued a citation for a fish "he" measured to long. Irregardless of what Dorn or anyone says.
For some reason the blame on this issue has strayed to many facats. The PWT, NPAA, Mike. Why? What did they have to do with Chris bringing in a questionable fish? Chris must have thought the fish was close or he would not have had all of his friends measure the fish.
People, realize that regardless of the situation, the Game Warden is the final say!!! He upholds the law!! Like it or not!! What he says goes!! If he measured the fish 18 inches or longer, he gave the citation he thought it deserved.
I do not feel Chris intended this to destroy the PWT, NPAA, or any individuals credibility. He just wants to prevent it from happening again from the way it sounds.
And Jarred, do you know who Mike McClelland is? Do you have any idea what he has done for the fishing industry in the past twenty years. That is the part I cannot stand on this issue. Everyone is very quick to jump to bash someone else. And Jarred, Mike was at the tournament in Chamberlain.
Everybody just step back, take a deep breath, and rethink this whole issue and what it has done thus far.

Pual Hammer

[Fellow PWT Pro]

For three days I have quietly watched this thing unfold. I didn't think I was going to respond until I read this response from Gary Parsons. Gary, I was in Chamberlin and it makes me wonder how a guy with your history and who struts around at tournaments with your "badge of integrity" on your arm, could question the judgement, decision making, and sportsmanship of one of our most upstanding anglers.

I suggest you judge yourself first before others. We are only as strong as our weakest link!

[Hans]

LAST EDITED ON May-03-01 AT 11:17AM (CST)[p]> And Jarred, do you know who Mike McClelland is?

Sure, we all know who Mike is. That's why it's so painful to watch him come stomping in here waving his "Presidency" around questioning the motives/methods of Chris Bahl.

Thankfully the board "leadership" censored his jeremiad.

Regards,

Hans

[Gary Parsons]

Fellow Pro, Who are you!!!! Maybe you should reread my post again. I personnally know Chris, he was an amateur in my boat a few years back in a North Dakota NAWA tournament. Seemed like an OK guy and asked a lot of questions about tournament fishing amd sponsors. But yes, I was questioning his reasoning for bringing in and weighing that fish! I personally think it was poor judgement and decision making for a tournament professional under the circumstances we were fishing in. As far as the unsportsmanship part I do need to clarify. I feel that way because two amateurs who paid close to $1000 apeice to be there had to sit on shore because of his actions. If he would have been allowed to weigh a longer fish than the rest of us he wouldn't have been playing with the same rules. HOW ABOUT THE REST OF THE COMPETITORS WHO PAY THEIR ENTRIES FOR A FAIR COMPETITION? DON'T WE COUNT! As far as the strutting around stuff, with my badge of integrety, I think those who know me would agree that the one thing that I truly believe in is a fair competition. Sorry if that upsets you. Also seems kind of funny that I'm being made out to be the bad guy, along with the likes of Fairbairn, Bell, McClelland, and Candle because we all have voiced our opinion about fairness. You state that Chris is one of our most upstanding professionals and that might be true, but according to your post I have been delegated to the duty of "weak link pond scum" because of my belief's and opinions. I would assume that you would view others that would agree with me the same way. Well at least this weak link pond scum believes in his opinions enough not to hide behind an fake name. Gary Parsons

[Walleye fishing fan]

I am alarmed and sickend by the way some of you pros are handling yourselves. Shame on you!!! Instead of attacking Chris Bahl and his decision making you should be commending him for taking a stand and trying to better your sport. I am sickened that the president of the NPAA that represents pro anglers would attack one of their own. As I am guessing from the post Chris is not a member of the NPAA? Is that why Mike McClellen said what he did about Chris? Because if that is the case I would be embarresed to be associated with such a man(Mike Mcclellen) or a group. Chris made a decision that not all of you pro's agree with.....that's fine, that is human nature. But to call him a bad sportsman and say he has bad judgement......you are the ones with bad judgement to attack one of your own.

[Walleye fishing fan]

Gary, Your tone is very alarming. Yes Chris made a decision you did not agree with, But does that give you any right to say he is a bad sportsman? Yes he did leave two amateur's standing on the dock and I am sure he felt very bad for them. But He did speak with the PWT officials before he withdrew and I am sure he addressed that with them. What does the PWT do to keep this from happening? nothing! That seems to be how they address all problems. So many of you pro's have said that the same type of thing that happened to Chris Bahl has happened to you. What did you guys do about it? Nothing......obviously. Chris seems to be a man with a lot of character.....I have not seen him attacking any of you.

[Waterfowler]

I posted this yesterday, but feel the need to reiterate. This was a very unfortunate incident for Chris. I'm glad I'm not in your shoes. I'm sure you'll come back strong and more knowlegable from this experience. You seem like an intelligent human, we need more of you on the earth.

What upsets me the most is the SD bashing going on here. Many here are bashing SD because of an over-zealous CO. We as dakotans deal with these CO's on a weekly basis, some bad, some excellent. I am personal friends with a few, none of which treat me any different. They check my license every time I'm out. You'd think they would remember from the week before. I chaulk it up that they are doing their job, upholding the laws for SD. It appears Chris got a raw deal, unfortunately he'll probably never be able to dispute that with due process. My point is, SD has some great resources and I love the oppurtunities it affords me. Please don't lump me into the same category as the minority whiners groups. I truely believe there are more of us decent, conservation minded, sportsman there than you give us credit for. Don't think the Chamberlain Chamber of Commerce doesn't appreciate holding that tournament.

I am disappointed the two amateurs didn't get there moneys worth and I hope the PWT does something to meet in the middle in situations like this. I guess that is the chance you take when you enter. Something I'll hold off for a while again. Good luck to you Chris, I'll definitley be watching the future leader boards for your name.

John K.

[ddt]

>Mike I agree that 18 inches
>is 18 inches, but how
>does anyone really know that
>the fish was 18 inches?
>As a tournament director I
>always give anglers an opportunity
>to compare their rulers with
>the offical ruler (the Judge)
>before an event. Who says
>all Judge rulers are 18
>inches exactly and how can
>any of us really know?
>Does the SD GFP have
>an offical ruler that they
>measure every fish with across
>that state?
>
>You might be surprised to find
>that many rulers are up
>to 1/4-inch off. I see
>it all the time in
>plastic rulers. People put those
>stickers that they get from
>the DNR on their boat
>or their tacklebox. Some of
>them stretch slightly due to
>the temperature when they are
>applied. Some of them shrink
>after being in the sun
>all summer. I've seen them
>be as much as 1/2-inch
>off either way! Tape measures
>can take longer measurements when
>measuring over the top of
>the fish than lying flat
>and measuring a fish that's
>lying on it. I've seen
>Golden Rule measuring boards be
>as much as a 1/2-inch
>off because they were stepped
>on in the boat and
>either shortened or lengthened a
>little. As you know, the
>golden rule has a bend
>in the end and the
>Judge has rivets, making it
>virtually immovable. Any golden rule
>could be easily altered by
>1/8-inch and know one would
>ever know but the person
>who did it. Plus the
>size of the fish would
>magnify the length disparity because
>of the height the fish's
>jaw hits on the end
>of the ruler.
>
>To say that 18 inches is
>18 inches totally misses the
>point. Does even the Pentagon
>know exactly how long 18
>inches is? I could go
>to every store and catalog
>and buy every brand of
>fish measuring device and they
>would all be different! There
>are too many variables here.
>Any overzealous Conservation officer with
>a anti-tournament attitude (and there
>are a few) could put
>a world of hurt on
>anglers with close-measuring fish if
>the wanted to make things
>difficult for tournaments. Especially if
>he's allowed to use a
>Golden Rule, which is easy
>to alter.
>
>For those others who seem to
>be confused about fanned tail
>versus pinched etc. FYI--It states
>right in the IWTT rules
>that all fish are measured
>on a Judge ruler and
>that they are measured with
>the tail pinched and the
>mouth closed. A fan tail
>would be one that is
>in a natural position. Pinching
>the tail and sweeping it
>across the line is acceptable.
>It seems that many anglers
>are not on the same
>page about this and it's
>time for some sort of
>an industry standard that the
>DNRs and anglers can agree
>on. Could this be something
>that the NPAA could spearhead?
>
>
>I'll tell you this for sure:
>If I were a Judge,
>I would throw this thing
>out of court because no
>one is going to be
>able to prove how long
>18 inches is, and no
>one is going to be
>able to prove how long
>that fish was.
>
>What a crazy deal.
>
>Bernie Barringer

Boy have we got it made now!! If the fish
is gone, out of court it goes. Get real, the game warden has final say, but the judge can throw it out if he think GW is less than truthful which is very unlikely to happen. You're splitting hairs when you say that one ruler measures differently than another, its a moot point, the GW's ruler is the final judge.
ddt

[Juls_WI]

I just spoke to Chris on the phone and he is on his way to Flippin Arkansas to pick up his boat, so he is unable to respond to any of the new posts we have had here today.

He wanted me to tell everyone that he is interested in what EVERYONE has to say, and that in particular he would like to hear from the pros that have responded so far. He said if there are any pros that want to call him personally to talk about this, that you should email me for his cell number. (see below for the addy).

He does not want to see other pros being attacked for their views and that, quote: "as a group of pros we need to stick together".

I wasn't at Chamberlain, so I can't comment on any of this. I was Chris's amature down at Lake Erie, a few weeks back, for the RCL, and got to know him pretty well. He's a good guy. I have my own views, but have already discussed them with Chris personally, and will keep my views off this message board. I also know each of the other pros that have posted here, and think they are deserving of more respect than they are getting here. Years and years of hard work and dedication to build walleye fishing to the level it is now, was because of the names you people are bashing here today. It's making me sick to see this happen.

I hate to see this get out of hand the way it is, and quite frankly when people respond to a post without comprehending it first, the only way this thread is going to go...is down. That's the way it always happens. It's no wonder the big name pros never post here. They're always the first to be critisized and bashed for their views. If I were them, I wouldn't post here either.

Juls
any Pros who want Chris's number email me at juls@walleyecentral.com He looks forward to speaking with you personally. Thanks.

[JUST AN OPINION]

Once a DNR officier makes his or her judgement/ruling on the situation, then the disagreement is betwen the fisherperson and the DNR. Why would the PWT want to intercede? They are not going to agrue with the DNR, even if the fish is two, three or four inches longer or shorter! Can you imagine one, two, or even three PWT officials shouting, "this fish is legal, are you blind!" Take the situation to court and get a ruling. Either way you would still need to fish the second and third days. Imagine how excited you would be to win in court and change the results of the tournament. That would make a great PWT television show!!! What happened to the amatuers? Were they given a refund and money for their hotel, gas, wear and tear on their vehicles, paid for time away from work, etc. Or did they just get screwed?