indians spearing the Chippewa Flowage

[wiggle]

Does anyone have any solid information on, how many and what kind of fish, the indians have speared out of the Chippewa Flowage this year? I guarantee the amount is more than anyone knows!!!

[wiggle]

Thank you for your highly intelligent reply!!!

[fishingdog]

This post is going nowhere fast. I am a native american like anyone else. I just have a norwegian genetic makeup, that is all I am. This is the USA and I did not take anyones property away, I did pay my dues as an american and I deserve the right that anyone else that was born in this country does. I should have the right to go spear if anyone else does. Also I should have the right to protest against it because I vote. Mt, don't criticize them for disagreeing with your point of view. I am sure this thread is doomed for the censor pile!

[larry]

I will add just a couple points i would like you to consider and then bow out of this thread. First, you might consider also the number of fish that are put into the system. There are several Indian tribal hatcheries in the mid-west that pump millions of fry in each year to various waters that non-Indians and Indians alike enjoy. Secondly, most of you are good law abiding citizens. Whether you/we fully believe in a particular law or not we recognize and respect the system and generally abide, speed limits, seatbelts, etc. The U.S. constitution, by definition, is the highest law of the land. It is from the U.S. constitution that treaty rights have been established and honored to a very limited degree. Many people will respect treaties established with other nations but not native tribes. ask yourself why? The U.S. constitution makes no differentiation. Whether you like the relationship the U.S. has developed with native tribes or not in my opinion that gives no right to attack a definable group of people.
The stretch of water between Ft Peck dam and Sakakewea crosses two states allowing for the migration of fish between. What would you think of a thread on WC whereby N. Dakotans and Montanans started attacking one another over who took fish out of that system? Hatred and fanning the flames of hatred are hardly constructive practices that will result in anything positive. Thank you for reading.

[gilman911]

Its not the harvesting of fish but rather the method that rubs some people wrong. This also trancends the harvesting of fish due to the fact that many people derive their income from tourists in the area. Restricted limits greatly reduce the custmer base of many guides, resort owners, gas stations etc. Why? So some can have a few meals of fish!! The days of living solely off the land ar3e long gone.

[fishindog]

Larry, you make good points but it works in reverse as well. Indians (native americans) fish waters that are stocked by non-indians too. I think what needs to be done is to eliminate these separation treaties which place a daggar in the process of equality. Descrimination is bad whether it is discrimination or reverse discrimination. Special rights to a few is discrimination to those that are not allowed to those rights. This is just my opinion, I harbor no ill thoughts toward the native american as a group, I just feel that I should have the same rights that they do. I am sorry what happened a hundred years ago but frankly it wasnt me who did that and I do not owe anyone anything. Discrimination wants equality so why not make the playing field more level?

[risor39]

I for one would like to know just how many "native americans" are spearing 30,000 plus walleye.There are a number of native americans that do not approve of the methods they are using to practice there heritage i.e. fiberglass boats,spot lights,outboard motors.I for one do not have a problem with native americans practicing thier heritage with daily limits as everyone else has to abide by.These people are not starving if they are it is the fault of nobody but themselves.If jobs are not available where they live move and look some where else like everyone else has to do.All this bull about the whites taking the land from them is a crock they did it with other tribes.Not that it was right for the white man to do but the facts are the facts.I've got to get off this subject it's starting to pi$$ me off.

[Leechboy]

Just a couple thoughts. I believe that the total indian harvest, all methods including spearing, is around 5% of total yearly harvest. Quite insignificant.
Secondly, to follow up on the post regarding Constitutional protection, the spearing right generally fits under the Constitutional provision which makes the Head of the Department of Interior in charge of the well being of the indians(too lazy to site amendment).
The specific right to spear is a contractual right (view specific treaties) that was bargained for by the U.S. government with the indians in exchange for land, peace and other initiatives pursued by our government at the time. Now don't go saying that was XX number of years ago, and is therefore invalid. A contract is a contract, and the treaties are very valid.
Lastly, you red-necks (takes one to know one)that are *****ing about the spearing couldn't catch a walleye if your dad underhanded it to you. That is all.-LB

[eco angler]

Just the facts:
If 5 % of fish is no big deal, study where most of this 5% comes from. It is not evenly distributed, but highly concentrated on a few lakes.

Treaties? Yup, convenient history lesson to say they must never be modified. Like Versailles? Like Dawes and Young plan's? Does anyone believe for a minute that if the treaties had a negative impact on minorities that liberals would argue they must be revised?

Sanctity of law. Of course, that is what the underground rail road was all about. Just because segregation under Dred Scott and Plessy v. Ferguson was legal did not make it right, just, or ethical.

Sorry for the post. I am just confused.

[Larry]

As for the original post/question....A number of years ago, In-Fisherman did a fantastic article "Indian Rights..Indian Wrongs". It was one of the best articles I've ever seen on the subject and presented both sides very well. At the time, Wisconsin was going through some very rough times with shots being fired and some real ugly scenes at some of the launches. There are reports available that give the exact numbers of fish being taken on each and every lake. I doubt there is any other group that is as closely monitored. When you cut through all the BS and fanfare, a previous post hit it right on the head....it's just no big deal. I truley believe that most spearing is done simply to keep up the pressure as a chip toward casino concessions. It's kind of like PETA...they come out with some outrages statement or picture and then just sit back to see the reaction. Without press, they're nothing !

[TLY]

We got through the entire (tho short) spearing season without any posts. Now that it is over why do we not realize it is over!!!

Our lake raised it's limit by 1 because of no spearing this year. Big deal. The Casino in Hudson is more of an issue than any spearing.

Zap this sucker and lets get on with life.

TLY

[Johna]

By thy deeds ye will be known.

[Huntingnut]

then let them go back to birch bark canoes and candle light!!! PERIOD

[Jerry]

If you truly believe as I do, that spearing is just an "in your face" act and the rules since the treaties were signed have changed (ie. fiberglass boats, sonar, outboards)then you must act on your convictions. Since I became aware of spearing and found out from a local conservation officer,that the fish are simply discarded after spearing, I no longer go to the Indian owned Casinos. I used to go regularly. Truthfully, they don't miss my money but if we band together...they'll get the message.
By the way...if we're going back to the "old ways" they can stop accepting Welfare from the US government.

[Mt-1]

Now there's a smart post for ya!!! Let me guess white supremacist from the great state of MN or WI!!! You should move to Idaho.

[Leechboy]

I guess I'm confused. The stats I've seen indicate that 5% of harvest is an average for individual lakes, not % total state harvest. I am interested in more current stats if anyone has them.
Re: your comment on "liberals interpretation of treaties". Actually, my view is the conservitive view from a contact law standpoint. Reading a contract literally and not supplying interpretation, as perscibed by chief justice Black (hence black letter law).
"Does anyone believe for a minute that if the treaties had a negative impact on minorities that liberals would argue they must be revised?"
A better question would be "does anyone believe for a minute that treaties didn't have a negative impact on minorities?" and end it there. Have you ever read a treaty?
I think what you are saying is that you are frustrated because you think Indians are "spearing out" your lake(s). Right? If so, I don't think fisheries numbers support that, but I certainly have an open mind to facts if you know differently.-lb

[Mt-1]

Yeh- that a boy!! Go get em tiger! Band together and fight for something your simple mind will NEVER change! ha ha. Why don't you concentrate on something like homelessness or world hunger and band your people together for a cause like those. It's a shame that simple minds NEVER amount to much, every year at this time this garbage starts, and has it ever amounted to anything thing but b_tching? NO!!

[800proX]

well 3 replies so far and all have been defamatory in nature. you have shown your worth to this post Mt.

jeff

[Mt-1]

Jeff- and your worthier then the rest?? Freedom of speech and self expression???What world do you live in?

[cmb]

that would only work if they could have their land back!

[JasonMN]

Amen!

Mt-1 = believe what I believe or I shall chastise you.

Also Mt-1, not being in agreement with the spearing or netting of fish does NOT make you a racist. Attempting to turn this issue into a racial one is an all too convienant (and common) way to dismiss fact these days.

Good fishing to all,

JasonMN

[800proX]

well, I for 1 do stand behind my name by posting it, and I also do not defame anyone for their input, whether I agree or not. I learned my lesson last year and paid for it and now can only tell you that by using such innapropriate forms of communication, only lessens your worthiness as a poster. I have singled you out because you have not given any constructive advice to the situation, only degrading those that have spoke b4 you.

jeff

[Mt-1]

Well take a look at some of the comments>> casinos, welfare, etc.. what does that have to do with spearing walleyes??
Telling people to go back to canoes>> come on open your eyes, you really think comments like that are needed???

[gilman911]

Facts are not the end all in this case. Whether the numbers of speared fish are minimal (which is debatable) or not, the real issue is the IMPACT on people's income. Why should life long residents suffer so a few can have special privilege!

[Mt-1]

Jeff-
So banning casinos and bashing Natives who are on welfare is constructive? wow> I was I could be as rightess as yourself and single out the minority. Go back through all the posts and tell me which ones offer ideas to the spearing. AND I'm not saying mine are ok contructive by any means.

GERALD

[800proX]

what are driving at? racial conotations and defamation are different than talking about casinos. i never said that this post addressed the initial intent of "wiggle". what i do know is that you have a situation where it is veiwed as a negative to be calling people "white supremecists". as far as the canoe and candle lite comment - that was in reply to that if the treaty is to be honored under the guise of the 1800's, then abide by how it was drawn at the time. to say that no revision should ever be done is ridiculous? if that was the case women should not vote, blacks ride on seperate busses, etc... i think there is a need for revision of something drawn up over 150 years ago, yes, and i also know it can be done without defaming individuals along the way. and by stating you are from idaho, to come and speak so boisterously about MN and WI, where is your credibility?

these are real issues to sportsman here and it is very sensitive, i just know racism has no place. canoes and casinos (which DO NOT pay taxes) are a far cry from your finger pointing IMHO.

jeff

[tbomn]

Hope everyone has a great weekend, go catch some....:-) :-)

"I respect faith, but doubt is what gives you an education."
Wilson Mizner

Good Fishin'
TBO/MN

[Bayside]

Isn't it kind of hard to practice catch and release when you spear them?

[wiggle]

Thank you to all the responses. I didn't really get and answer to my post tho.
This spring the indians have been spearing "my lake" the Chippewa Flowage, every night. There would be 1-3 boats at one time out on the lake in front of the cabin, every night. I cannot imagine how many fish are taken each night. Well, one day I went to one spot where they put there boat into the lake at. I was quite surprised when I saw a pile of dead fish laying on the bottom of the lake in about 4' of water right at the landing. There were at least 3 muskies, some panfish, and a lot of rough fish. If they did not want these fish, why would they have speared them??? The indians talk about "honor the earth" everything in nature is their "god". I just cannot figure out their reasoning. Everyone complains about how the "white man" descriminates. Who is discriminating when an indian can spear and a white man cannot??? Also, why can an indian in Wisconsin have a casino and I cannot??? Who is discriminating??? I didn't know that the "treaties" said that indians could have casinos in the first place.

[bigW]

and a lot of rough fish. so whats your problem

[TONTO]

LOL wiggle. Old Medicine Man (very wise) tell TONTO story many moons ago........He say...Walk in other mans Moccasins for two moons. Many times before walk in Moccasins they look very good...........after two moons...Give them back.They do not fit very well.

[Tough Guy]

Tough Guy know Old Medicine Man. He send Tough Guy home with mushrooms for depression. Tough Guy say humbug on depression and put mushrooms on large canadian bacon with extra cheese. Tough Guy laugh at nothing for 48 hours, make smile muscles hurt. No more depression, Old Medicine Man know all.

[TONTO]

Good fishing and safe journeys old friend.

[risor39]

I just read in my local paper the "SPEARERS" TOOK 26,000 Walleye this year thank god for a quick spawn.The DNR will be increasing some kake limits this year.They were well short of thier anticipated harvest of 45,000.Wait till next year.As for this practice being a well regulated activity they can spear Musky all year long and the DNR has no idea how many are speared. Rick S.

[BTB]

Just to add a little bit of information to the discussion, the number of fish speared through the ice don't count against the tribes' total take. How many are speared through the ice?

Brad

[Wis-Fishermen]

Just to add one more thing, They did a study right after the indians first started spearing and they found that for every walleye they put in the boat 2 were mortaly wounded and lay in the bottom of the lake!

[One more time]

Okay, this thread isnt automatically doomed to the censorship pile. Threads here are not deleted because of a sensitive issue. They are deleted because they degrade to petty name calling and factless attacks. Keep it civil and it stays. You can bet the people who run the board are watching. And for the last freakin time, enough with the censorship crap. This site is the best place I have ever found to say whats on yer mind. Anything at all can be posted here. Would your local TV or radio station allow that? How about the local paper? Even the worst stuff gets posted and stays a little while. Free Speach is alive and well here. Enough with the line, this will probably be deleted but....if you think it wil be smoked, don't say it.

[You're both nuts]

Sounds like a monkey arguing with his reflection in a mirror.
If you think the indians should go back to candles and birch bark, you go back to a 12 foot wooden rowboat and a bamboo cane pole.
What the heck does WI or MN have to do with white supremecy and MT?
Jumpin Jesus man! If you do not like the current laws, get involved to make change. Don't sit here and whine.

"The only difference between a fisherman and a puppy is the puppy eventually grows up and stops whining." - Unknown

[wiggle]

Did I say something funny? What I wrote here is the truth!
Also, what is my problem with the rough fish? When I catch a carp or a bullhead, I don't kill it. I put it back! Unless I eat it!!!

[Art/Co]

Yep, and those teepee casino's.