Ruling of the Ruler the Chris Bahl Trial!

[SD eye]

I’m just returning from the court hearing in Kennebec, South Dakota where I attended Chris Bahl’s trial
on the infamous 18" PWT walleye. After a very tremendous and convincing argument from Mr. Bahl the court hesitantly ruled in favor of the state. One thing needs to be noted: the PWT was there for the hearing but not in support of Chris Bahl they were there to support the state’s effort. They also introduced this very message board “ Walleye Central” as evidence. This is a sad day for professional anglers around the country not only did the PWT use our conversation as evidence exposing all who participated but they also turned their backs to one of their own!!! As an interesting side note the fish in question were not present and presumed to be still swimming in the river.

With no doubt there needs to be a CLEAR standard of measurement between tournament fishing and the state laws. There is no reason that this should not happen with both sides helping decide the rules I got the feeling from both sides that they agree that there needs to be a standard and it should happen soon!

Chris Bahl is an extremely intelligent and dedicated person, I don’t think that today’s events will be the last that we hear about the infamous 18” PWT walleye. I want to wish Chris Bahl and Team Stizo the best of luck for the remainder of the season. Good fishing!

SD eye

[Sunshine]

I'm ignorant to the Pro rules in the PWT. Will Chris be allowed to fish in future Tournaments if he lost his court case? Don't they have a morals clause that could prevent him from continuing? If you're found guilty of breaking fishing regulations, wouldn't this cause you to be DQ'd for future participation? This would obviously be a tragedy. What's his recourse? Does he plan to fight this any further? Good Luck Chris!!

[Goldpig]

Yes, he will be allowed to fish in future tournaments. In fact, he could have fished the last two days of the Chamberlain tournament.

[Al]

I'm not a big time walleye fisherman. I did a lot of B.A.S.S. tournies years ago, and I can tell you walleye pros....ya'll f'ed up here. If you don't stick together on something like this, you are going to be screwed down the line. PWT already showed what it would do. I can't for the life of me understand why you wouldn't put differences aside....take the written statements Chris had, support Chris and at least challenge PWT and the State. You big namers out there, the next time you are at a lure, boat or line pro team meeting, ask guys like Rolland, Larry N., Rick Clunn, Denny B. and others what made it so that they could make a living in the sport. They stuck together on the way they handled sponsors and BASS (Big Ray). Without them, BASS would've been an also ran or a "good idea that didn't make it". They've been vigilant not to let someone come in and spoil it with sponsors or let BASS just railroad them. They've taken on renegade flash in the pans who tried to short cut things(like do things for free or extra cheap...cutting the throats of the up and comers). All in the name of protecting themselves, but also the up and comers.

Your supposed fraternity of upper echelon pros don't hold a candle to what I've seen those guys do in paving not only their way, but new guys too. You had the chance, as "old time ambassadors", at least get the kid a fair hearing. Instead, you sat by and let PWT remain silent. PWT can now walk all over you. When it is the easiest thing to do, they will. Just hope your option is the easiest for them in the future. Good job. Pat yourselves on the back. You really are big time. Maybe some of you did support Chris. Those who did, did the right thing. Those of you who didn't....I hope you are next. A taste of your own medicine would be good.

[cisco]

I realize the defendant does not need "proof," but what case did Mr. Bahl make? And, how does this board constitute evidence for the prosecution? I'm curious.

[curt quesnell]

why oh why would anyone think that the walleye contests
can in any way play by a separate set of rules of their very own?
they must follow state laws just like you and me. there
is no difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

how any of you could even think of a walleye contest organization
"layin down the law" to the law is so far out of bounds it
borders on funny.

i hope this doesnt go on and on like the last time. now that
chris has had his day in court i hope he can get on with his
life.

this isnt a case of everyone stickin together, it isnt a case
of the pwt "goin to bat" for anyone either. its a case where
a game warden issued a ticket for one too many big fish. the
law is law and the state is gonna go with the lawman, period the
end. the pwt, the npaa, al lindner, tank, mark dorn, jim k
had no business or right to try to take the law into their own
hands. there was nothing for them to do.

any pros who got speeding tickets in south dakota had to pay
them, the pwt cant fix that either.

lets not blow this whole thing up again. i dont even know what
"als" post is about, other than maybe the other pwt pros can
somehow fix this. the other pwt pros can step in and set the
state of south dakota straight, by god!!!!!

lets let chris move on, take this lesson, this setback like the
man he is. i would hate to have my mistakes tossed around here
for a month.


curt quesnell

[whaleye]

Curt

You are missing the point. What happened today? No fish, no evidence? Howabout the two forms of measurement (the judge and the golden rule)? The PWT uses the Judge, the SD game wardens use the golden rule? Does anyone have any details of what transpired today?

The PWT supporting the SD Game and Parks after the way they were teated is a tavesty!!!!! Wow! They just sent a powerful message to all you vetrans as well. That is unbelievable. Talk about drawing a line in the sand. It will be interesting to see if any of the "vetrans" take a stand. It takes guts and tons of integrity.

Curt, you still don't get this. The law is the law. The PWT is the PWT. Neither is the same or responsible for the other.

Brad

[skinny]

There is a clear standard for tournament fishing in South Dakota, it is the same standard that all fishermen must follow on a daily basis. I am sorry that Mr. Bahl made an honest mistake, or bad descision, depending on how you look at it, but he has been given his day in court and must accept his penalty. He was treated no differently than any weekend fisherman would have been. That is the way it should be. It is now time to move on, and I wish Chris great success in his career.
As for the PWT, what were they supposed to do for Chris? Should they have stood up and said that because it was a tournament there should be a different set of laws? Or maybe they should have said it was just a minor oversight that Chris didn't know the law, or how the fish should be measured. They were in a no win situation.

[skinny]

>Curt
>
>You are missing the point.
>What happened today? No
>fish, no evidence?
>Howabout the two forms of
>measurement (the judge and the
>golden rule)? The PWT
>uses the Judge, the SD
>game wardens use the golden
>rule? Does anyone have
>any details of what transpired
>today?
>
>The PWT supporting the SD Game
>and Parks after the way
>they were teated is a
>tavesty!!!!! Wow! They
>just sent a powerful message
>to all you vetrans as
>well. That is unbelievable.
> Talk about drawing a
>line in the sand.
>It will be interesting to
>see if any of the
>"vetrans" take a stand.
>It takes guts and tons
>of integrity.
>
>Curt, you still don't get this.
> The law is the
>law. The PWT is
>the PWT. Neither is the
>same or responsible for the
>other.
>
>Brad

Brad-
Does your statement mean that the PWT is not responsible for the law in the area that they are fishing? That is how I read your last statement. I beleive that you rethink your position.

[Wayne]

The Judge verses the Golden rule got me DQed from a tournament that I had won by a big margin.Its my opinion that the Judge is the tournament standard and that the SD DNR should consider any commercialy manufactured fish ruler unless stated in the law that it has to be measured on brand X.Heck I see people useing home made masking tape rulers with lines drawn in magic marker and I don't see the Minnesota DNR getting picky with those people."IF" the fish was indeed legal on the Judge the SD DNR should except that.If you look at the Golden Rule with the bend end,they vary quite a bit from one to the next.

[Marken]

I find it very interesting that this board was used as evidence. Do you know who submitted it?
As far as the ruling goes, the right judgement was made. Not even tourny angler's are above the law. Chris took his chance and lost. Hard lessons learned.

[whaleye]

skinny

Not at all. It is my understanding that the PWT's instructions and method of measurement were different than that of SD law. Therefore they mislead one of their anglers and then left him out to dry. They have never acknowledged their mistake in this. They have never acknowledged that they did not propoerly evaluate the fish. My understanding from earlier dicussions were that the PWT clearly stated in a rules meeting that they would be measuring with a "fanned" tail. SD measures with a pinched tail. The PWT measures with the Judge, SD co's with the golden rule. Sounds like the PWT was asking for a disaster to happen. It did, the law is the law, and the PWT ran off leaving their angler high and dry by their negligence. Chris is guilty by SD law. However, this seems to go much deeper than that. What we have hear is a serious failure to communicate, and the way I see it, that is the responsibility of the PWT. Not the SD F, G & P and not the purely the anglers. The anglers pay money to compete, therefore they are suseptible to the rules and decisions of the organization. The PWT grossly mislead their anglers then ran and ignored the situation. By showing up in defense of the state shows a serious lack of integrity and that they are seriously afraid of the liability they created.

Brad

Brad

[Taylor]

Has anyone talked to Chris? What is his e-mail address? I am curious on what the PWT testified too as well as who submitted this board as evidence and why? I smell colusion, a witch hunt possibly. This is bad. Poor guy.

[SD eye]

The guy from the PWT brought in the WC print outs. I was impressed by the CO's. They were open minded and truthful. I was disgusted by the PWT's testimony, very inaccurate.

Another note, the judge was a female judge who said more than once that she knew nothing about fishing. Another note, before Chris' hearing was a hearing of a local angler who competed in a team tournament the saturday before the PWT's. He should have won the tournament but had a third fish over 18" as well. The interesting part was that no game officier measured his fish, only the tournament director. He was still issued a ticket and the judge upheald that as well. Chris made a tremendous argument for his fellow angler, who he did not know, but to no avail. I was very impressed with how Chris first argued the ruling on his fellow angler before he argued his own ruling. Very classy show of unity. I have a feeling I witnessed history. As I left Chris and the ticketing CO were having a very positive conversation out front of the courthouse. I saw them both smiling as well as shake hands twice and pat each other on the back. This is a matter of principle, not personal agenda's. I am convinced.

SD Eye

[skinny]

>Brad-
I understand that the PWT has rules for their tournament that differ from the laws of South Dakota. However, is it up to the fishermen to know the laws of the state that he fishes in, and what are considered legal fish. I would also think that it makes good sense not to bring a fish to the scale if there is an inkling of a doubt to its legality.
If you and I are in a boat and I tell you that we can have 3 fish over 18" when, in fact, we can only have 2, and we get a ticket, is it not both of us who are at fault for not checking out the law?
Could the PWT have avoided this problem by adopting the exact standards that the SDGFP uses? Possibly. Should they look into doing it in the future? Certainly. Should Chris Bahl have checked the free fishing handbook given out by the SDGFP and known that he had a questionable fish? Absolutely. It is ulimatley every anglers responsibility to make sure that he is within the laws of the state.
I can tell that you feel strongly that the PWT should have taken a different position on this, but what is it that you think they could have done to help Chris out? My personal opinion is that there was very little they could have done to help Chris once the CO had found Chris on violation of the bag limit.
Skinny

[Al]

"its a case where
a game warden issued a ticket for one too many big fish. "


Jeez, talk about missing the point. That judgement was questioned....and the fish was not remeasured....there are written testimonies by others who were there at the time who give credibility to Chris. Nobody said a ##### thing about special treatment. That judgement was in question,and the Game and Fish officer had no guts to put the fish back on the table and have it remeasured. He dumped it in the lake. To me, it's the equivilant of Ollie North and Hillary Clinton paper shreader. You can't make me look bad if you don't have the evidence to get a second look. It is all about sticking together. You all are gonna get what you deserve. PWT is gutless for just sitting by at the weigh in, and even more gutless to pull what they did in court. That's my opinion..and as I said before...nobody asked for special treatment...just fair treatment. If you "big time" pros don't stick together and demand that...you got nothing. It's all about sticking together. BASS had some groups that did not treat them or the fishermen friendly. Needless to say, Bob Cobb told them to pack sand and they went elsewhere. You know the economic impact. Call it what you want, threat or whatever...but that should be used to get fair treatment. It's obvious from other posts in past tournaments...the same group of officers had been checking that sales tax had been paid on boats and so on. SD is nice, but there are other venues. I say give them the Bob Cobb treatment and tell em pack sand.

[Weyes1]

I have never fished a PWT tournament and I never will. The PWT has an obligation to follow the laws of the state in which they hold a tournament. That means if the law states that the fish will be measured with a closed tale then this information, for one, should be announced at the rules meeting, and two, be upheld at the weigh in. As for the PWT using posts from walleye central and kissing the States behind, that is very sad that an organization would stoop that low. If I were Chris, I would say Screw the PWT and fish the RCL. As for the C.O. in this deal. He was very unprofessional in what he did. He should have made beyond a reasonable doubt that the fish was an illegal fish before issueing the citation.
I fish by the rules. How ever, it sounds like S.D. isn't a place to chance keeping a slightly legal fish. If it's 17 3/4" and it's in my live well, it's 17 3/4".
As for the PWT, well it was nice following you in the InFisherman. I'll be looking forward to seeing the RCL results there.

Weyes1
Kevin Clark
weyes1@wamego.net

[curt quesnell]

nobody ever said the fish measured ok on the judge.
both use inches i believe.

not being a wise guy, but that never was offered up as
an excuse.

curt quesnell

[curt quesnell]

its not the gamewardens job to argue with every game violator
that gets a ticket. they wont argue and they are under no
obligation to re measure anything. thats what court is for.

i dont think i miss any point since there is only one point
that matters in the whole issure. pwt rules state all anglers
must follow all local and state laws while competition is
underway. now regardless of what may or may not have been
said at a meeting and corrected later at another meeting
how much more clear could it be to follow and obey state
laws....that would include knowing what they are.

curt quesnell

[Dutchman]

At a Touney on Oahe a couple of weeks ago a GF&P CO was there to measure fish at the weigh in. Courtious he was not, although he measured all my fish on my ruler, and checked our license, as I would have expected, I did not expect him to walk through a mud puddle and get in my boat with gumbo stuck to the bottom and the sides of his boots. Could have kicked the tire to knock some of it off. Rude or ignorant, I couldn't tell at the time...

[Steve W.]

Curt, I carry both the Judge and the Golden Rule in my boat, and they are not identical. Several years back during a national championship I had a fish that made our 18" min. on the Golden Rule, but was just barely short on the Judge. I chose not to bring it to the scale (thankfully we still won, or I'd probably still be wondering if I should kick myself). My point is, the two are not identical means of measuring fish.

[Pro Angler]

I agree with you Al. It makes me sick to see people on this thing make this a Chris Bahl problem. It is not a Chris Bahl problem and his name should be left out of it. This is a tournament angler problem. I am down right @$#%&* that the PWT showed up in support of the state, thus against a tournament angler. That has sealed the deal for me. There is a huge difference in the different forms of measurement out there and there needs to be a standard. The CO's that checked me in SD all had the Golden Rule with them. The PWT did tell us all they were measureing with a "fanned" tail. Right there is the start of this tragedy. The PWT is negligent and mislead their anglers. The PWT brings in the Judge and therefore they are claiming to be "above" the law by not conforming to local standards of measurment. I am ticked. Great post Al.

[PWT = Professional Walleye Turncoats]

PWT

You went again one of your anglers in court after you mislead them!!!! Your rules and methods were different than that of the state and you didn't even bother inviting, or meeting with, the CO's to you rules meeting to make sure everything was clear? This makes me sick. I will NEVER fish one of your tournaments!

I bet Primedia is proud of you. I bet their shareholders would cringe at your actions.

Huh.........

[Final thought]

Here is how to prevent this in the future.
PWT-
Use the state's standard at each tourney. Get the CO to tell the anglers how to measure fish. Tell the anglers what board the State is using.

Angler-
Get the board the state is using and do not use any other at that tourney. Re measure any close fish before bagging them. Do not bring up a questionable fish, especially when the CO's are standing there bumping every questionable fish. If you do not understand the standard, go talk to the CO's, they will explain/show you.

State CO's-
Make sure you are there to help the tourney and the anglers understand your proceedures, not just spout tickets like a confetti machine. You guys and gals do a lot for the sport. But, pubnlic relations skills are often lacking. Prevention is beteer than penalization, every time.

[Jigeye]

There it is>>in black and white>>ALL the PWT cares about is your entry fees and your subscriptions!! It all comes out in the wash after all!! Booo PWT!!!!

[SD Eye]

YES!!! Great post!! I agree.

[SD Eye]

While I agree with you jigeye after what I have seen. My last post was in reference to "Final Thought."

Isn't sad how the PWT casted Chris away, completely ignoring him, and then "turning the knife" by going against him. It made me sick. I have gotten quite the lesson on the PWT and professional angling this past month. I also got a new, valued friend. For those of you who don't know Chris, you're missing out.

[sib]

i agree nothing more than the old game "screw your neighbor," in this case, you don't screw em until you get your check.

i went to their web site and noticed that the in-fisherman logo was all over that page. so, i called in-fisherman and cancelled my subscription! i told them why i cancelled: as a sponsor of pwt, in light of the Chris Bahl issue, i could not support their magazine because of their relationship to pwt. whoopy, they won't miss my dollar, but i feel a little better knowing none of my money will enhance the pwt, however insignificant it may be.

i would understand if pwt even offered no support to Mr. Bahl(whom I've never met), but to sit across from him and oppose him, I can't support anything like that! in fact, i will look for ways not to support them.

it's a great mag and i will miss the great articles, but i can't look the other way when someone gets knifed in the back.

"go outside and play"
sib

[bayside]

Since the fish is the only evidence, why was it released? How did the State prove it's case when it threw the evidence out??

[Al]

"they wont argue and they are under no
obligation to re measure anything. thats what court is for."

You missed in your own statement. It's for the court? How the ##### do you expect anything to get done in court when the disputed evidence got tossed into the water? That is where PWT should have jumped in. You can dispute audits by the IRS with evidence. That evidence can be used in the courts, but not if the IRS runs the stuff through a paper shreader. I'm telling you, you pros got a raspberry from PWT on this.

If an officer says I shot a doe and the law said buck only, and I drag the carcas in with Antlers on it....the officer doesn't have the last word. It was chicken spit by the Game and Fish not to remeasure it, and it was even worse for PWT to sit on its arse when others there saw it differently too.

Those bass guys are heads and shoulders above this group when it comes to this stuff. You aren't moving forward for your cause of making a living fishing with BS like this. If I was in your ranks, I'd have a hard time taking any type of PWT/Angler Advisory board serious. What took place in SD is a joke.

[Al]

"He was treated no differently than any weekend fisherman would have been. "

The only thing is, because a weekend angler isn't under the guise of "good sportsmanship" by sponsors, a weekend angler....in some cases (my case) wouldn't have let the fish be returned to the lake. Chris was a gentleman. Do that to some guys at the dock, and they'd make a scene enough that another CO or the local sherriff would be called. Then you'd get another set of eyes on it...and you'd still have the evidence.

If a CO was to ticket someone for trapping an endangered species, don't you think he'd have pictures, or the carcass as evidence? You know he would. The fact that the fish went back into the drink doesn't allow for a fair trial.

[SUPERTROLLER]

I have a question. What is the legal limit for fish 18" or bigger in SD.? Is it one per angler? Is it two per angler? I realize the tournament rules were two fish over 18" but was wondering if the third fish over 18" could/should have been considered to have been the partners fish by the CO and therefore it would have made it to the measuring table of the PWT. Here the PWT would have had to make the ruling on this fish in question. Not trying to re-try the case here on WC but one of the above postings peaked my curiosity. By the State laws, the boat should have been allowed to bring in a legal limit for both anglers. Were they actually in violation by having three 18 inchers? Should the Co-angler also have gotten a ticket? Someone knowing the limits, Please repond. Thanks in advance.

[Dodge1]

I assume that Chris Bahl has resigned from the PWT and will no longer be fishing in any of their tournaments.

Does anyone know how many times the PWT has had this happen in the last 10 years? From the posts here it sounds like this is an common event.

[FJH1]

Supertroller, I was wondering the exact same thing.

FJH

[Hawgeye]

I don't believe they can "party hunt". One individual is allowed to take only the fish that he/she catches. It is obvious that to enforce that would be almost impossible, it is the fact. By stating that, the other fisherman in the boat may well have had 2 over 18 as well bringing it to 5 total.

Many responses on here state that how can the PWT overrule the CO's. This has never even been a consideration. The point being made was that if the PWT was allowed to measure the fish, or if another CO measured the fish, there would have been no argument on whether the fish was legal or not. Word against word with someone trying to prove a point (namely the CO)could cause an incorrect measurement.

Also there has been discussion here about which measuring tool was used. The "judge" and the "golden rule" vary slightly in their reading. Granted, 18 inches is 18 inches but, a fish is a biological creature that can be squished or stretched slightly. I know that because I have been given a warning before. This has no longer become a Chris Bahl issue. It is trivial the expense of the fine for breaking the law.

Sometimes it takes an event of magnitude like the PWT to shed some light on the fact that fish measuring is not an exact science. Granted, if the fish was in question, 20/20 hindsight tells us that Chris should have released it. Easy to say now. Competing for a victory, every inch counts for more weight. If he had a fish over 18 inches, fine him and DQ him. Since there is no evidence except the CO's word agianst Chris's and some witnesses that felt it was under 18, then Chris was wronged by both the PWT and the SDGandF.

Bottom line in my opinion is the PWT did nothing to protect their people against an overzealous CO. Had they made any effort to support him, I would respect them even if Chris turned out to be wrong. Even if Chris was wrong, the least the PWT could have done is consider his argument which as far as I am concerned did not. SORRY but as far as I am concerned, the PWT is no longer the tour that I consider a "professionally run" anything...

[M.R.Fish]

Let me see if i have this right,
Cris ---- zero
Pwt ---- zero
walleye fishin' ---- zero
S.D. G&f ---- ?
big brother & social enginering ---- score one

and the winner is not the sport that we all hold close to our soul, nor the co-operation of coming together to further our most important cause, just confussed lost, bewiltered, discredited, aruging groups of people that will no longer have the enjoyment of fishin' for 'eyes and the advancement of sport fishin'. Yep, looks like forty nine more states to go and the adgenda is complete.

the're always bitin'

[Art/Co]

Ditto,

Cancelled my subsciption to Infisherman today. I feel better already.The magazine was turning into a cheap rag anyway.

[Ric]

I am a little confused why there is condemnation of the PWT. From my understanding, and I am sure that I will be corrected if I am wrong, but there was no PWT official at the station where CO's were checking. Once the fish was gone, what could they do? Now I agree that things could have been run better, but that doesn't mean they need to be chastized.

I am also confused about the "fanned" tail. The PWT always "fans" the tail (i.e. waving it back and forth to get the longest measurement) and having said "fanned" instead of "fan" seems to be more a matter of semantics than anything. It would appear that every other angler figured it out.

I guess whether or not the fish was 18", none of us will ever know since some people say it was while others on scene said it wasn't. I just hope that everyone learned a little something, and wish Chris continued success in his endevours.

[reddog]

No intentions of helping out the PWT here, but since there is such a ongoing problem with tournaments in South Dakota, why not make the tournament rule that only one fish can be brought in that is over 17 inches in length, instead of the state legal lenght of 18. Wouldnt this eliminate the GF&P from ever having to measure a fish? All the anglers are still fishing the same, but with a 1 inch less fish than state law, so that wouldnt be a factor. Then the tourmnament officials could have the final say into whether it is legal or not. Your big fish would still be the same, and 5 inches less length shouldnt really make much of a difference in weight.

[Paul Hammer]

First thing, in the state of SD, you can have one fish per angler over 18 inches.
Secondly, I was involved on this discussion the last time it was up and running. I still find it amazing that some of the people commenting on this have the guts to blame the PWT for this event. I am not degrading Chris in anyway, but it was his choice to keep too many fish over 18 inches. Nobody elses. His own. Chris took it to court and lost. That fact is done and I am sure Chris is glad it is done. But what is with all of pounding of the PWT. They could have done nothing to help this. I am sure the PWT was at the court case just to verify what happened. I am sure they did not walk in the door to put Chris down. GET REAL.
Some of you are so far gone on this you are blinded. The PWT was not at fault on this thing. You can point fingers all you want, but facts are facts. Chris got a citation for too many fish over 18 inches. PERIOD. His choice.
The PWT is what has elevated the walleye tourney world. In-fisherman has done leaps and bounds for you and I in the industry. Do some of you realize this? Do you? You sure are glad to slam them any chance you get.
I hope Chris does well the rest of the season. I hope he keeps on fishing.
But some people just need to step back from this and get a grip on reality.

Paul Hammer

[Paul????!!!!!!!!]

It was the PWT's event. It was the PWT's rules meeting. It was the PWT's responsibility. Then the PWT sticks one of us in the back and turns the knife. I am sorry but that is wrong. You have vehemently defended the PWT in a blind fashion throughout this. YOU, take a step back and look at the facts. Chris was the responsibility of the PWT. THEY went against the norm of SD. They could have and should have run a more professional event.

[Paul Hammer]

First off, if you are going to have a conversation with me, please state your name.
It says right in the PWT manual that measurements are done with a "fanned and piched tail". Get a copy and read them.

Paul Hammer

[Hawgeye]

Paul

My only response to you is that unfortunately you are not open minded enough to even consider the fact that things were not handled properly. You also must be part of the "good ole boy" network that if anyone rocks your boat you just cast them overboard to fend for themselves.

I still believe that whether or not the fish was legal, there is no way of knowing. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Again, as I said, there is no proof and it boils down to "boss Hawg's" word against Chris and some witnesses.

I was never defending Chris personally, just the way the issue was handled...

[Pamela Schmidt]

Paul

I don't fish your tournaments, but I am smart enough to see the facts. I will call you if you like to find out your real name and who you are? This is a mess that effects my husband, son, and father who fish tournaments. They are up in arms about this and I am shocked.

Paul???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pam

[Hawgeye Response]

Hawgeye,
I have to agree with your statement. I am open minded enough to look at all the facts. I do not disagree with the questions on the handling.
My only problem is that none of us were there. We really do not know exactly what happened. That makes it tough for all of us to completely understand what happened. A lot of info on here is word of mouth. I just question on how much to trust it all.
What is this good old boy thing. I think you said that to me last time. Explain. I do not think I am a good old boy, maybe I am.

Paul Hammer

[Sorry Pam!!]

Pam,
I have no intention of offending you in any fashion and I do not sit your shoes where I am directly affected by this situation. I apologize if I offended you.
I will quite responding on this topic. All I seem to do is get a fire started and that is not my intentions.

Later,


Paul Hammer

[Define]

Good ole boy:

A group of individuals that stick together regardless of whether or not they believe in the issue so they are considered with the "in" crowd. Afraid to let their real feelings heard so they are not labeled as "one who goes against the grain" just to look good.

[M.R.Fish]

Yep, right down the garden path. Get out the way the railroad is running and the're comin' thru.
Get the act together, further the real cause fishin' for 'eyes not there adjenda but - OURS -

[PRIMEDIA]

I called In-Fisherman today and they could care less about me or my concerns. In-Fisherman is not "bigger" than me, a subscriber, so I called Primedia and the office of Thomas Rogers this afternoon at (212) 745-0100. They have already called me back once and will have someone else call me tomorrow!!

I encourage others who want to be heard to call Primedia. They seemed very interested on the phone today. They said they take this very seriously. Maybe we can make a difference, who knows?

[AND OJ IS INNOCENT]

n/m

[Gilligan]

Besides that I dont understand what evidence CO could have when he returned the live fish to the lake?? Sorta like that well used pet fish joke going around.

[PWT Am.]

I guess I will once again agree to disagree.

I know one thing, he quit in the middle of a team sport. My parents would have been ashamed of me regardless of the circumstances. Sportsmanship is being better than those that you believe cheated you. Principle has nothing to do with it.

I think some Pro's were prefishing without knowing what SD's fishing laws are. This fact has nothing to do with rule meetings. It also has nothing to do with what your intentions during prefishing were. Sportsmanship would suggest you fully be aware of these laws, so that you might be able to provide guidance to those around you. After all, you are there to set a example.

And lastly,
Why isn't it a gold vs red ruler lawsuit problem. If you want to blame someone, why not them? I'm surprised someone hasn't gone this route. You can not expect tournaments to also require specific measuring devices for specific states. After all, 18" is 18".

[Chuck Pederson MN]

Lake Oahe SD. Daily limit of 14 may include no more than 4 walleye/sauger 15 inches or longer and no more than one of those may be 18 inches or longer year round. With a 3 day possession of 42 I'm going to quit measuring fish with my Igloo cooler. Good luck and see ya on the water.

[Tourn. Am]

I believe he withdrew under protest which means that competition should be suspended until his case is heard or at least his basket held until an evaluation is made, I believe. I was there talked with him before Day 2 in the lobby and it was my impression that last thing he wanted to do was not compete. The problem was, he was ignored. Two others pro's who talked with him that mroning agreed with him, which makes me believe they would have done the same. I don't know? I do know, first hand, he did not quit and I thought handled it very well considering the size of his loss.

[Ihunteyes]

First off, you do NOT stop a competition for a ruling in a protest. The competition is completed, then the hearings begin. For example,In baseball, the manager believes the umpire mad a wrong decision in a rules violation, he calls for a protest of the game. You then here over the intercome that as of lets say the 5th inning the game is being played under protest. The game is not stopped until there is a ruling. The PWT can't say,Wait a minute,everyone has to stop fishing because there is a protest.They also can't say,Excuse me officer but you are wrong. That fish is clearly under 18". Can you tell an officer that he is wrong when you know deep down that you are right? Nope. It is very unfourtunate that Chris made the decision to bring in such a close fish when he had such a big weight. Like I have said before,a fish that is 17 3/4" wieghts about 3oz less than an 17 7/8" fish. With the big fish he had I don't think 3oz would have mattered. But that is just my thoughts.

Rich Stebbins #286

[Al]

"Chris took it to court and lost. "


ANd what did he have to work with? You ever run a race with your foot in a bucket? The CO through the fish back without anyone getting another look. As I said before, I don't fish PWT, but did fish BASS years ago. From your statements, I'd not be shocked to find you are part of PWT. They screwed up. At the very least, they should have requested to look at the measurement. If nothing else, to save their face now. You can pump them up all you want, but they screwed up. Nobody said to give anyone a step above the law....just a second look. What the ##### would that have hurt? PWT being a bit PC for the SD boys? IF that is the way they deal with these venues of tournaments, RCL will kick them in the teeth just like FLW has the BASS boys. Maybe it will make you and your PWT croanies think a little more about what to do. You all try to make it sound like a second look by another officer, someone from PWT or Chris himself would have been the unpardonable sin. No wonder many think PWT is being self serving.

[Allen]

And after that protest in baseball, they use visual evidence to make determinations, such as video. In this case, the fish was thrown back right after the objection. I can't believe you guys don't find that as a major problem.

[EX-PWT Am]

Primedia must also be wondering why there are still some amateur openings. This is all the PWT way of doing business!!! Take care of the selected few aka the chosen ones and throw out the rules for them. I have fished as amauter for a few years and saw plenty of questionable behavior. I had a pro fall asleep in the boat while trolling and dont get me started on the saulte tourney last year with pros throwing in the towel before the tourney even started!!! The PWT needs to look at the quality of the product(pros) from top to bottom. Some of the pros dont know the exact boundries and/or fish size or slot limits until the rules meeting-or thats the impression they give at the rule meetings... just some rambling thoughts about PWT and their way of doing business as usual!!!

Take care of your own PWT from top to bottom

[RCL'er]

Every tourney has it bad apples, RCL included. Any time money is
involved humans will be humans. Since the RCL Erie tournament was a harvest tourney, the live fish determination was a joke. "That fish moved, it is alive." Who cares if it is releasable.

[skinny]

"As far as the way fish are measured, we (pro/amateur's) each received at least one copy of the South Dakota regulations which clearly (page 20) show that the tail is to be "pinched" when measuring length. They also where available at registration." This was taken from a previous thread. This amateur also went on to say that the piched tail measurement was relayed to the fishermen the morning of the tournament. Any argument that Chris didn't know how the fish should be measured is not legitimate.
As far as a protest, what was there to protest? Was Chris protesting that the fish should be weighed after a game warden measured it and found it to be 18"?

[Ihunteyes]

LAST EDITED ON May-16-01 AT 08:27PM (CST)[p]Not if it is an interpritation of a rule. what if there were no cameras pointed in the right direction? So now what?The point of the thread was that you keep compeating. The ansewr to the question is the umpire or official gets the last word.Is that fair? No. Do we have to live with it? Yes

Rich Stebbins #286

[reddog]

My point was that since GF&P dont hold a favorable view of big tournaments on South Dakota waters, that if they set 17 inches as the slot size, there wouldnt be any discrepancy in the measurement of the tournament fish, and it would be up the the tournament officials, rather than GF&P officials. If it was 17 1/2 long, GF&P couldnt say a thing, but PWT could dispute it all they wanted to, and make a ruling based on a committee whether it was a legal fish in their tournament.

[Fuzzy]

Al- the PWT has been second hind teet to B.A.S.S. since the get go and we just don't have the mindset ready to deal with controversy. Us upper Midwest folks just like goin with the flow and not making waves. This case will be a buiding block for us and something we will not forget. That's one thing us upper Midwest folks do well...we don't forget Buffalo Sheets. You input
is valued by me and I hope many serious tourney anglers as well.

But it seems the PWT is placing itself in the same path of the XFL. Competition from more adavnced thinking tours, diminishing lack of interest, falling ratings, falling In-Fish subscriptions and Primedia management seems to point to a predictable ending to a once 'indestuted champion' in an industry niche.

I'm proud of the days I spent playing the role of a 'pro'. But I cannot bring myself to tell too many newcomers about all the Buffalo Sheets on the inside.

[Ms.Eye]

I have been following this from the beginning, as many of you know. The "official" never made a ruling on the fish. The PWT Tournament Director never made a ruling, therefore Chris' argument. The SD game official himself said that he and the tournament director could have made two different judgement calls, per someone who spoke to him. The PWT never made their "call."

I just found out via e-mail about this thread and what happened in court. I am physically sick to hear that the PWT showed up against their angler. All the blunders they made in this and then they have the gall to stick Chris in the back. To bad there isn't a angler's union who could boycott all PWT events. If you are a tournament angler, this has got to make you think about what happened to your fellow angler and how the PWT views you. I wish there was something more I could do. I don't fish tournaments. Any ideas?

[crazyeyes]

Great idea!!! I am going to call them as well.

[Ihunteyes]

The PWT tournament director is not the official hear.It was the judge that made the ruling in favor of the warden not Chris!

[curt quesnell]

i quit counting at 22 posters (not posts) with no real names or emails.

what you are hearing from them is made up, slanted,
miss heard, and or 5th generation information.

they are sheep who are reacting wildly to these untruths
and doin lots of fist shaking, subscription cancelling,
makin up more new stuff and generally misbehaving under the
cloak of secret identity.

they dont care about chris bahl or the pwt or the truth
they want to get on a world wide media and shoot their mouths
off and act important while not takeing a second to act
responsibly or know even a little bit about what they are
talking about.

the very first post of the thread is not full of gospel truth
and the rest of the flock hopped right in to throw some stones
at a safe distance and run and hide.

this is pretty sad.

curt quesnell

[Dutchman]

I agree Curt, The credibility of annonomous posters is like trying to catch farts. It smells and you know it's there, but you also know that it will go away soon.

[SD Eye]

What about my first post isn't the truth? It is 100% accurate. As for names, I have been using this handle along time. I am Rodger Chandler. What does that have to do with it? Who is Curt Quesnell, and why is he so hostile? You seem to have something at stake here?

[Hawgeye]

From where is your credibility? My name is known by my posted name. Noone knows me from Adam if I did use my real name. I have not been slanderous or even misrepresenting. Maybe you did not mean it against my posts but you did seem to group all together.

[C. Burton]

Here we go again, another great discussion being distracted with attacks. The only thing that smells here are your efforts to discredit and distract. I wonder what must be going on your guys lives that always has you attacking and being negative?

[Magnum]

i just called primedia myself and was directed to the office of john loughlin, president & ceo of enthusist magazines. i spoke to a really nice lady named kathy who is going to have someone call me back today. she said they have had other calls on this issue. i subscribe to 6 different primedia magazines.

[sib]

sib has been my handle from the first day i posted. that little guy next to my name indicates i'm a registered user. other registered users can click on it and read my bio. as for e-mail, i get to much spam already, leaving it on a public forum doesn't appeal to me.


"go outside and play"
sib

[Dodge1]

I asked this once before and I'll ask it again.

I assume that since Chris Bahl is so upset, he resigned from the PWT.

Since most of the posters are saying it's the PWT's fault, how many other anglers were caught, following the PWT's directions?

Finally, how many times has something like this happened, at a PWT event, in say the last 10 years?

No one answered my first inquiry.

[cmb]

Is there any "evidence" after you are cited for speeding, disturbing the peace, running a red light, or protesting a parking violation? NO-

get on with life--

yes the PWT could have (should have) suported its member, but there are also much larger political issues to consider. Why burn a bridge when it isn't warented! The situation could have been handeled better by all involved parties, maby next time it will be. if it is, then it would be worth the time invested by Chris.

[Scott Richardson]

I thought the issue was whether the fish was measured incorrectly and whether the PWT was the one that said to measure it the wrong way which gave the shorter read out. I never heard an argument that the ruler he used was inexact. If the ruler was defective, that could have been shown in court easily enough.

In all that has been written about this subject that goes on and on and on, I haven't seen a post from a PWT who was at the rules meeting who said the PWT said to open the tail rather than pinch it as law requires everywhere I have ever fished. I may have missed it in the hundreds of posts. But, any lawyer will tell you the law is the law and ignorance of it is no defense. The morale seems to be get the rules and read them.

Also, to the people who say no evidence was offered in court, it would seem the DNR officer testified about what he saw. Just like a police officer testifying about a speeder, the court is going to believe him. Would you have the DNR keep and kill a fish that they thought was illegally taken? Freezing it would effect the measurement anyway if it were indeed that close.

Where were the others to testify the pros were told to measure incorrectly? That certainly would have been mitigation on the defense's behalf. Where were the others who saw him measure the fish who would testify it was legal? Where is the amateur who was in the boat in all of this?

I have to agree with the tournament angler above who points out there is little difference in weight between a 177/8 and 173/4. Another morale, when in doubt,leave it out.

I'm sorry someone was hurt in all this, especially the amateurs who were unable to fish day two and three because their pro quit. But, nothing said here is going to convince anyone of anything. More care on everyone's part seems to be the message.

Anonymous personal bashing seems pointless, too. We all can learn from the experience and go on.

[Jimmy]

I am withdrawing from the PWT. They moved the tournament, which gives me an out and now after reading this I am definitly not supporting them. See you in Saginaw.

[Jay]

I can't believe how the majority of these posts are jumping all over the PWT when they've only heard one side of the story. The fact is, Chris broke SD law (he alone was responsible for that), was ticketed by the CO and found guilty in court. How is the PWT suppose to "back their angler" on this one? Maybe the CO didn't handle the situation correctly, maybe changes could be made in the future to prevent this, but how can the PWT support their angler breaking a law he should have known (ignorance is no excuse) and dropping out of the tourney. They can't condone his actions any more than the other PWT pros can. Maybe the big-time "BASS boys" could pull a few strings and handle this better, but I think the small-time PWT made the right call.

I don't know Chris, but he sounds like a decent guy who did what he thought was right at the time. In hindsight, it was a bad call and he paid the price and he learned from it. I don't see how his bad judgement places the blame on the PWT.

And I don't blame the PWT for not responding to this board and telling their side of it because that would only lead to more fuel for this out of control fire. Dropping out of the PWT or cancelling subscriptions based on hearing one side of the story and a bunch of rumors on this board is ridiculous!

I guess people like to see the "little guy" take on the establishment, but guess what.....the "little guy" isn't always in the right.

[Al]

"Every tourney has it bad apples, RCL included. Any time money is
involved humans will be humans. Since the RCL Erie tournament was a harvest tourney, the live fish determination was a joke. "That fish moved, it is alive." Who cares if it is releasable. "

And what would make that different from the PWT's at Erie? AT there request of the state, they were harvest tournies. Live fish determinations keep any hint of foul play at bay. Yes, there is an observer, but if observers corrected all wrongs, why didn't Chris's catch his supposed 18" fish?

[Allen]

"Not if it is an interpritation of a rule. what if there were no cameras pointed in the right direction? So now what?The point of the thread was that you keep compeating. The ansewr to the question is the umpire or official gets the last word.Is that fair? No. Do we have to live with it? Yes"


Except for the fact that an umpire will ask for help from another ump. Ever see an appeal to first base on a check swing? It's hard to get an appeal when the fish is in the water.

[Hawgeye]

The problem is the way I understand it was that the fish actually was disputable on whether it actually was legal or not. I understood that witnesses observed that the fish was under 18"...I could be wrong.

[Al]

So I don't put my email with every post. I've been Al or Allen for quite some time. Since birth? My email is on there now, so if you want to send me a love letter or spam go ahead. That's mostly why I don't put my email on these things. I get enough spam to make one puke. But spam away if it makes you happy.

I find it hilarious that you will stand up for PWT and SDGF on reputation alone, yet this other gent was in the court room and you doubt him. Now that logic is confusing. If it proves out he wasn't there, and it's a story fine...But obviously PWT was there, and has been here. Why don't they clear it up? There is a word for it, but it won't make it to the board.

[Walleye Herbie]

Scott,

I was at the PWT rules meeting and with my own two ears heard Mark Dorn who is the rules part of the parings meeting state that fish will be measured by "fanning the tail". On the other hand the law is the law and you are responsible for knowing it and abiding by it. My day one partner and I had a fish that was measured several times by the Weigh master and believe me it made my #** pucker. We made it past the weigh tank thank god. If it was my call I would have tossed that fish at the bump tank and weighed the 16 incher we had that was part of our 8 fish limit. So we would have maybe lost a half pound. Better than losing the 11.1 lbs. of fish that we would have ended up with. It is a tough decision when you get that 17 7/8 inch fish but rules are rules and if it touches 18 it's 18. I feel for chris in the biggest way and hope to see him at mille lacs. The PWT is a great orginization and I for one will continue to fish with them.


Kevin Herbert NPAA#557

[Jay]

The measurement may have been disputed by witnesses, but it was the CO's call, not the PWT's. Right or wrong the PWT and the angler have to abide by it. The angler chose to fight it in court and lost. It's not the PWT's fight.

[Steve]

Why is Chris Bahl being portraied as a victim and a hero.He broke the law and got caught,he went to court he lost.End of story,he had a marginal fish and he made the choice to wiegh it.Yes it sounds like something smells fishy with the way things were handled but ultimatly he has no one to blame but him self.Move on to the next round,it's over.I feel bad for Chris I did the same thing with the same result.I learned my lesson!

[curt quesnell]

how about the part about "tank" your pwt official on scene
to destroy chris bahl? tank was asked by the the state of
south dakota to appear since he was the weighmaster and the
closest human being to the infraction. the pwt had no
representation at the hearing. i think you are trying to
"tank" tank.

the walleye central threads were entered into evidence by
the state of south dakota, not in fish or pwt.

sound like the truth? want more?

curt quesnell

[Hey Jay]

Jay,
Great post!! I have to agree with you.

Paul Hammer

[curt quesnell]

from the very first post on the subject, a vocal few here
have been looking for a way to blame everyone but chris.

i felt bad about what chris's decision had cost him, but
i felt worse for him when is saw the screws getting put to
him here to raise up and fight the great injustice.

then the story began to twist as it was told and retold
and key elements were dropped or changed under the quise
of fact.

this is a bad deal because people may be hurt by falsehoods
and innuendo.

curt quesnell

[RedEye]

Curt,
Do you have some kind of auto post thing setup that automatically keeps making the same points
over and over or is that something you are doing manually?

[curt quesnell]

red eye,
i was just answering the post by jay because he asked a question. but i get your point and agree that i have stated
my point. thank you for the tap on the shoulder.
there may be other points but this one is out there.

curt quesnell

[Ihunteyes]

When was the last time a game was under protest for a checked swing? Never. I am leaving for a tournament now. If you want to reply just email me.

Rich Stebbins #286

[jammingme]

I agree with Curt. How do you expect to get any respect when you all cry like babies for weeks after a tournament. (I did not say anyone was a baby I said they cry like babies. Please don't censor me because I make an honest observation, thanks)Last year it was Oh it's to windy waaa waaa... Now it's the illegal fish thing. It's only gonna hurt your so called sport acting like that. you could learn alot on how to act like a grown up from people like Gary Roach, he's got class, you'all have none.

[Golden]

This was sent to me by Ron Lindner to be posted:

Having sold In-Fisherman three years ago, my brother Al and I have nothing to say in any type of official capacity or to speak on behalf of In-Fisherman or PWT. However, we are still active tournament fisherman, and it's from this point of view that we would like to speak.

More and More we are being confronted with slot limit restrictions and the problems these restrictions pose as exemplified in the Chris Bahl problem.

I believe the solution and I speak, personally, as a tournament fisherman as well as an ex-tournament official.

Seeing both sides of this controversy, I believe the solution is quite simple. The tournament organizations (In-Fisherman, RCL, Bassmaster, etc.) simply have to adapt a size minimum/maximum that is safe enough from the State regulations.

For example, if the limits are 15" minimum and 26" maximum the tournament officials simply make these 15 1/4" and 25 3/4".

Even the simplest of us tournament anglers can discern a clear quarter inch. And in this regard if one inadvertently breaks a tournament rule, one will not break a State regulation. It isn't that hard guys!

Regards, Ron Lindner

-------------------------------------------------

[Hawgeye]

AMEN!

[reddog]

Didnt I say the same thing two days ago. At least Im on the same page as Ron L is. Take the state laws out of the factor by making the tournament rules more stringent than state laws. This will place any discrepancies onto the tournament weighin comittee.. Your big fish will stay the same, and you wont lose much weight in a quarter or half inch per fish, since everybody else is in the same boat.

[T.N.]

Curt

Cash your PWT paycheck tomorrow and stay off this board. You are a negative, ignorant, one sided, voice box that is completely clueless. I am not backing either party, but your post are definitly defending a very embarrassed party in this deal. I don't know Chris, I don't know anyone at the PWT, the facts are the facts and you have completely missed the boat on this one, or you are blind to one side.

Tim

[Peace]

Ron

Thank You! Spoken like a true professional. Did not attack anyone, did not defend either side, simply stated a solution. Please come back to our sport and run the PWT!!! I am sure Chris will be the first to welcome you. Poor guy is a rookie caught up in a age old problem and has to feel like an island right about now. I hope to see him and you and my home lake Mille Lacs in a few days!!

Thank You,

Robert Baxter

[Quesnell]

Curt

Read some words of wisdom from Ron and learn. Your stuff does nothing for any of us. Ron built the PWT and they obviously desperately miss the Linder logic. You are tearing down a good professional and the PWT with your junk!

I hope Chris and the PWT can come together through this for us all.

BLK

[SD Eye]

Curt

I was there and you are incorrect. I did not see you there, at least I don't think so. There was a total of eight of us there. Maybe you were the DA!!

You are dilusional. You are now spreading more B.S. As far as "Tank" he wore a PWT shirt, Stren hat and lied his tail off. I was at the tank the day this happened. I provided Chris his first written statement, and I was at court. You have been no where to be found!! Tell the truth or don't say anything at all.

Rodger

[SUPERTROLLER]

I've got a better idea. Don't run tournaments on waters with slot limits or no cull rules. If you catch a 7 lb.er after you've already got a 5 lb.er in the box, you should be allowed to upgrade your catch to separate the guys that actually caught the biggest bag of the day, not the ones that caught their fish in the luckiest order. I know this severely limits where to hold tournaments but this slot limit stuff is getting old. Maybe they could bring in a legal limit for both anglers and then weigh the biggest 5 fish. I just don't agree with the no cull rules. I know it's State law in some States but I don't see the need when the livewells in the boats are so much better now-a-days. Fish in livewells are probably getting more oxygen than the fish in the lake.

[TM]

Gary Roach?! Ask Team Gary Roach about Gary Roach. Maybe start with Mike Gofron.

T. Malone

[Scott Richardson]

I guess I still don't understand. "Fanning the tail" means to me pinching it and then fanning it, or moving it, back and forth to see the farthest place it touches. How else would you fan it. Otherwise, you arent fanning it, you are just holding it against the ruler.

Regardless, if there were any misunderstandings or confusion, a simple question would have clarified it. And, further, the law is indeed the law. It's the angler's responsiblity.

Ron Lindner and Al Lindner are the voices of reason here. But of course, people will ##### if that rule ever goes into effect no matter how much sense it makes.

I just hope that in the future, I hope a pro who has amateurs depending on him for a place to fish doesnt pack up and go home when he disagrees with a decision.

I also would be sad if people withdrew over this. Show me a perfect tournament circuit, please. There are humans involved and humans make mistakes. Let he who has never made one cast the first stone. Certainly PWT and In-Fisherman have done incredible amounts for walleye fishing and deserve our thanks.

[Ms. Eye]

Scott

You keep attacking Chris. Read your last paragraph and then think about your words. In my opinion, he did not leave anyone at the dock, the PWT did. That is my opinion, you are obviously pro-PWT in this so you have yours. My whole neighborhood, here is Jackson, MI, happen to agree with Chris and his decision. My sister in Peshtigo, WI, also agrees with Chris. We all have opinions and this one seems to be devided. We state our opinions, not take jabs.

Ms. Eye

[Skinny]

Ms. Eye
How is he attcking Chris? Could you please elaborate? I don't find anything in the last post that is an attack, he is simply stating an opinion like the rest of us. Also, why do you agree with Chris withdrawing from the tournament?
Skinny

[Backwater Eddy]

Good plan, simple, easy to understand, & doesn't put tournament anglers above the law in the publics eye, I like the round down answer suggested by Ron.

Backwater Eddy.....><,,>

[curt quesnell]

i would love to let rons post end this thread. it is clear
the divisions will continue and we wont solve anything here.

this is walleye central where we discuss, learn and argue
some.

good luck to all
next subject?

curt quesnell

[Marty Dietz]

C"mon guys, lighten up a bit. A year from now this won't be important. As an aside, did anyone interview the fish to get his take on this mess?

[Ms. Eye]

Ok, attacking is probably a harsh term. I don't agree with taking "jabs" at Chris on this issue. I don't it has anything to do with him or his decision to withdraw. If I was ignored on something this important I would not have continued as well. I would have gone nuts. They NEVER accepted, reviewed, or decided on his plea for a protest. That doesn't sound terrible to you skinny?

[Scott Richardson]

I didn't take a jab at anyone. PWT did not set state law, measure the fish, did not decide to bring it in, did not issue the ticket, did not leave anyone on the dock.

[Rambo]

Nobody has really addressed the facts. Fact Chris brought in illegal fish or at least borderline and took the risk. Fact he got caught. Fact he made a rookie mistake and acted wrongly by withdrawing from tournament leaving amateurs out in the cold. Fact the PWT is a class act I have fished it for years and will continue. Fact if you think its easy running a tournament circuit start one yourself. Fact to may people discussing this subject bringing a bad name to all tournament anglers.

[SUPERTROLLER]

It ain't over until I say it's over! Bring more body bags, "It ain't over, yet." Let's try for 200 postings on this one. I'm sure we've missed some angle somewhere. I'm not convinced the PWT is out to get all the Tournament anglers. Can someone please give me more facts. Curt Q. and Scott R., can you guys clarify your position just one more time. I'm not sure where you stand. Seems like you're kinda like politicians. Talk a lot but never tell us exactly what ya think. Anyone got any opinions on the S.D. officer's actions that we need to hear for the twentieth time?

Thank you to whomever it was that did answer my question on possession limits in S.D. It was so long ago I can't remember who answered.

HE'S GUILTY! HE HAD HIS DAY IN COURT ON WAS STILL FOUND TO BE IN VIOLATION. HE ACCEPTED HIS FATE AND SHOOK HANDS WITH THE C.O. NOW IT MUST BE OVER! (I SAY IT IS.)

[Skinny]

Ms. Eye-
I have to be honest and say that I do not know the exact letter of the law as far as the PWT is concerned. However, I have followed this topic fairly close on this board, and from what I gather from the pros that have posted, once you have been issued a citation by the GFP, you are automatically dq'd from that tournament, no exceptions. If that is the way the PWT decides to handle things, the protest would be mute. Do you agree? If he was protesting, say, not getting back to the weigh station on time, then I can see where the PWT would have to make a ruling, but with this, they have already ruled by the actions they have taken in the past. I may be wrong, but that is the way I see things.
Thank you for replying to the previous post.
Skinny

[Ms. Eye]

Skinny

Good points. You and I are interested, so why hasn't the PWT taken the time and addressed us? That is the first I heard about if are issued a citation you are automatically DQ'ed? The argument has been that the PWT did not make their own evaluation of the fish. Would you not agree that you cannot have a game warden making decisions that effect the outcome of a professional event? I think Ron Linder has a pretty good point on this.

Will the PWT, Chris and other pro's sit down at the next event and get this ironed out so it doesn't happen again? I would think the worst thing the PWT could do is to continue to turn their back on Chris and not bring any change. If nothing else I am following tournament fishing now!!!!

Ms. Eye

[SD Eye]

He is not guilty, he got screwed, was drug through the mud by a bunch of internet "no-names" (meaning hidden identities), got stabbed in the back, and is still a great guy. PWT acted irresponsibly, Chris brought one in that was to close to call, who won? Who lost? Maybe we all won? I sure hope so.

In my opinion the ball is in the PWT's court. They will either make something great out of this or this will fester until one day it bites them really bad.

[PWT Am]

I agree that a game warden should not be deciding events, but I would point out that the vast majority of anglers already do things similar to what Ron suggested. I seen numerous fish in the 17 7/8 - just short of 18" being thrown back. The pro imposed their own rule to insure that if a fish grew in length once it relaxed they would still be legal. I suppose the tourneys could impose rules to make it a mute point or leave it to the discretion of their pro's. Since all tourneys speak so much of sportsmanship, no one should have to worry about breaking laws. It is a fact that a citation equals DQ for the day at PWT events. It has always been this way. This is the reason most pro's take no chances when it comes to fish length. SOme like to play it close and assume the risk that goes with it.

[Skinyy]

Ms. EYE
I agree that this is a topic that has really caught my eye, and that I, too, will follow the trail a lot more closely. The info about being dq'd for having the day dq'd for having an illegal fish came from Scott Fairburn, and he stated that the PWT has followed this practice since the beginning. I assume that it is true, but maybe he's wrong.
I guess where you and I don't see "eye to eye" (great pun) are exactly the two points that you made in the last post. First, I absolutley agree that a warden should have the power to influence the outcome of a professional fishing tournament, if there is a violation of the law, which is exactly the situation that we have here. I assume that you would not have the fish weighed if it was found to be an illegal fish, right? This ties in directly to the second point, which is that the PWT could not show support for Chris after he was issued the ticket. I know the saying "innocent until proven guilty" but in this case, the CO has the final word. A judge will back him up 99.9% of the time. I know the next thing that will be said is that there was an over zealous CO trying to make an example out of Chris. I don't buy that either. What did the guy have to gain? Of the 2000 fish that were weighed, I believe that he could have "stretched" several fish if his intent was to make a point. I know quite a few COs here in SD, and every one of them is top notch. I would guess that there are some bad, like with any group, but I don't think that is the case here.
I welcome your feedback.
Skinny

[RCL'ers]

I have fished harvest tournaments by both PWT and RCL. The RCL Erie checked for currently live fish. The PWT checked for releaseable live fish. Their is a small difference in the approach that does affect weights since both have penalties for dead/non-releasable fish.

[PWT Am]

I suppose I will just have to spend the money and get a copy of the trial transcipt. Then I can make my own judgement as a what-if jury member. Any one know the phone number of the clerk for the court house in question?

[SKR]

That is a great idea. I wonder if one could get a electronic file so it could be posted? I too would like to get a copy.

[Care to clarify that?]

n/m

[walliman]

Iwas also there at the court hearing and was the measure man at the previous tourn. The law states that the angler is only to keep one fish 18" and over {not OVER 18"}. The court action that I had observed was that Chris B was clearly guilty as he PAID HIS FINE BEFORE COURT which is clearly a submission of guilt,and as for using the message board as evidence it sounded to me that he clearly admited his guilt there as well.Chris made most of his arguement on wanting a second opinion on the length, my opinion is if you get a speeding ticket do you ask for a second opinion from another officer<NOT>. As far as the measure board goes,if the PWT uses the Judge as its OFFICIAL measure then why did Chris stop at Cabelas and purchase a Golden Rule? As for not having the fish at the court room, was as anyone knows is that when you freeze something the item tends to shrink.You can be arrested on hear say evidence in any state as it pertains to just about any crime <ie: stealing,doing drugs,arson> and the list goes on.I guess my way of thinking is if you do wrong than shut your mouth and take what comes your way,because it was your decision to take the chance you did.

[Enough already]

Maybe one of you guys should start a new web site entitled fishing injustices. Looks like there would be great interest.
Let's all go fishing. ;-)

Learn from your own mistakes.
Learn from the mistakes of others.
Forgive and/or forget or distance yourself.
But most importantly..............go fishing

[Dutchman]

Hey guy's I'm not saying your not telling the truth all I'm saying is that there has to be a lot of sorting of information on this site. The folks that post and leave an e-mail address or some kind of ID tag to a post are adding there name not remaining annonymous. This point alone, especially when it's a heated topic with many opinions does not add credibility but it does allow for communication off of this site. That's why I always leave my e-mail address. I have been contacted several times in regards to several issues to further help some one out. Nothing personal intended, just my opinion.........

[Dutchman]

Hey guy's I'm not saying your not telling the truth all I'm saying is that there has to be a lot of sorting of information on this site. The folks that post and leave an e-mail address or some kind of ID tag to a post are adding there name not remaining annonymous. This point alone, especially when it's a heated topic with many opinions does not add credibility but it does allow for communication off of this site. That's why I always leave my e-mail address. I have been contacted several times in regards to several issues to further help some one out. Nothing personal intended, just my opinion.........

[Slow Reader]

And you still have time to get on the inter-net, and to fish?
;-)
You are a fast reader!

[Weyes1]

Now you can't do that, you'll hurt too many States feelings. The PWT worked hard to get these States in line to fish these tournaments. Unfortunately the PWT feels obligated to these States to hold tournaments there year after year.
I also have a few comments to add to the above (way above posts).
1. I saw a lot of you post that you can't argue with a police officer to prove your speed. You do have the right to see the radar to see how fast you were going. You also have the right to see when it was last calibrated. I don't know if lasers need calibrating.
2. The CO should have clearly showed Chris that the fish was truely over 18". Failing to do that is just the CO's word against Chris'. Which the court upheld?
3. People say you can't blame the PWT because they didn't back the angler. Sure you can. All the PWT would have to say is that "Hey, there was clearly no proof that the fish was illegal or not. Therefore, We will no longer be able to hold any more tournaments in this state. It's called economic pressure and it works!
What I have read makes you wonder, and hope fully I will be able to talk to Chris in a couple of weeks when he fishes a Kansas Walleye Tournament or two will answer a few questions I have.
As far as the PWT and the State of South Dakota are concerned, I will avoid both as much as I can until things change.
Weyes1
Kevin Clark
weyes1@wamego.net

[SD Eye]

If you were at the hearing you sure missed the same hearing everyone else heard? I suggest you too get a copy of the transcript. Did Chris not make the argument that there is a difference between "The Judge" and "Golden Rule?" Did he not make a good argument that there is a possibility that the two could, and sometimes do measure differently, thus being "off" from one another? Did he not point out that the SD F G & P carry the "Golden Rule", which was substanciated by both CO's? Did he not make the argument that he was denied the right to have the fish measured on both a SD CO's golden rule as well as his own to clear up any descrepencies?

The PWT and its "Judge" is not the law. Chris was there to argue his case on his ticket not against the PWT, which is entirely different. The irony of the day was that the case before Chris' was that of a local angler who too received the same ticket for a fish that was measured on a "GOLDEN RULE!" I couldn't believe that the judge didn't pick up on that one.

As far as telling Chris to shut his mouth? He has, graciously stood by and watch his name be used in this. This is out of his hands and is obviously a sensative issue to tournament fisherman. You are obviously tied very closely to the PWT and therefore are quite nervous as to what this has done to your image. Well, your organization reflects the its leadership on down. In my 40 + years of fishing and tournaments I have seen my fair share of screw-ups. This one is just major league and was handled horribly by your group. So, let's all shut our mouths and let you run over us all the way you see fit? I don't think so. I believe the light is only going to get brighter on you.

[walliman]

Well for one thing, I didnt say you couldnt see the radar I said you couldnt ask for another officer to come over and say,yes you were speeding.I also heard the arguement in court as to how many times the fish was measured---THREE--- for those who need to get a transcript.It was turned over 3 different times and REmeasured. The SDGFP does not claim to have the Golden Rule as an official measuring tool,I have seen people who take a lath with masking tape on it to use as a measuring tool. I also didnt say for Chris to shut up , I meant for all of us to just get over it and move on, life and fishing is to short..............

[Nofish]

Hey Gang,

It is with great trepidation that I enter the fray.......

Did I miss something here? Is the SD standard the Golden Rule bump board? I know I have heard the name tossed all around the posts. I am re reading to see.

Walliman, you say it is not their official measure. If it is not, shouldn't the SD Co's adopt a mationally mfg product as their standard? If they do not, it is purely he said she said.

If an angler has a comercially available board, and the CO's have the same, the measurement should end up being the same on both rulers. It would be very easy to list the board in the regs.

Also, if an angler has a comercially available board, different from the states reccomended board, and it bumps on one, but not the other, why wouldn't it still be legal.

If the board in question is not altered or damaged, shouldn't it be a legal fish?

Just wondering..........R

[Lars]

Did you hear the time Ole vent to Fargo to get a new combine?
He vas in dis bar and dis Indian guy says "Hey I got a riddle for yew, and if yew can get da right annser, I buy yew a drink, and if yew can't get da annser, yew buy me a drink.....OK?"
Vell,,, Ole says.. "OK"
So,,, dis Indian sezz " My modder and my Fodder had a baby, and it vasn't my brudder, or my sister...So...who vas it?
Ole sezz..."I don't know", and da Indian says..."It vas me!"

Soooo now Ole gets back to Sleepy Eye and he seen Sven in da bar and he figgers he would get a drink off Sven vit dis rioddle he has learnt. So.. he sezz to Sven..."Sven, I got a riddle and if you get da annser right, I buy you a drink...but, if you gett it wrong, you buy me a drink....OK?"
Sven tinks fer a minute an sezz.."OK" Sooo... Ole sezz.."My fodder and my modder had a baby, and it vasn't my brudder and it vasn't my sister....Do you know who vas it?" Sven tinks on in it and sezz "NO.. who vas it?"
Ole says .."Vell, it vas some Indian guy in Fargo, Nord Dakota!"

;-)
Let's have some fun again, gang!

[Tough Guy]

Sven, Ole, and some Indian guy from Fargo (Tonto?). Tough Guy think Lars is right, lets get on with fishing now. Mr. Bahl had his day in court, now it is over. Mighty walleye awaits us now. There will be more tournaments for everyone, including Mr. Bahl. Good Luck to him and all others. Tough Guy out.

[Allen]

The measure of the fish was a judgement call. A checked swing is a judgement call...and the catcher A PLAYER (MLB) can appeal to the first or third base umpire.


The fact remains nothing in the realm of a fair protest, appeal or trial can be done when the fish is tossed back.

[Judge Dale]

Tremendous point. I agree. Why was there not an appeal or protest process?

[Judge Dale]

Tremendous point. I agree. Why was there not an appeal or protest process?

[Fish KS]

for what it is worth, i met chris yesterday at the kansas walleye assoc. on el dorado. really good guy who just wants to fish. i asked him about this and he too wishes it would go away. he had nothing but good things to say about south dakota and the pwt. after talking to him directly i have a completely different view of what happened and i 100% agree with him. i think his whole ordeal got clouded on this board.