4 Stroke or 2 Stroke

[tx_basser]

Guys,

I am going to be buying a Alumacraft Lunker 165 LTD. I am looking at getting either a 40 4 stroke or 50 2 stroke Yamaha. Can't really make up my mind.

I don't troll when I fish. Not that I am against it or anything, but I am a bassin man.

Is there any significant advantage to getting a 4 stroke or a 2 stroke. I can't imagine the gas savings being the reason alone, as I am usually not at in the mid range rpm's for any length of time. I usually go to my spot, shut down then start fishing with the bow mount.

Thanks

[moreyes]

Go with a 50 hp 4 stroke, although I have 115 you will not believe how quiet they are, no smoke, gas mileage is better depending how hard you run it. Speed is not really any different.

moreyes

[luredaddy]

I know I am in the minority, but I would go with the 2 stroke! I have 2 on my Lund, and over the last 35 years , 2 strokes have proven to be dependable performers for me. Initial cost is less, weight is less, performance is better. They troll slower and run faster. You may go a few miles more on a tank with a 4 stroke, but what are you really saving. They do put fewer emissions into the air, that is a plus. I would go with the time tested 2 stroke!!

[punch1]

I had a Honda 90 four stroke and now a Mercury 125 two stroke. I will always miss how much more quiet the four stroke was. The gas savings for me was excellant and the smoke emmisions were an added bonus. Don't forget, you don't have to premix or add oil ever again with the four stroke. Just food for thought!

[Bad Finger]

I agree! To answer the quetion...definetly take the 50 2-stroke over a 40 4-stroke. Especially if you don't troll. You will get a lot more "Zoom" out of that boat!!

[mlc]

Basser, in your situation I would not even consider a 4-stroke. You want to get there fast and then drop your trolling motor. You want performance for the buck and for that you cannot compete with the 2-stroke. The 4-stroke will cost you a bag full of bucks compared to the 2-stroke.

If you want a quieter ride and do not mind the extra weight and cost, then I'd consider the 4-stroke.

I have run both. I just put a new 90 Yamaha on mine and am very satisfied. I did put a 4-stroke kicker on the back also. I do a lot of trolling. The money I saved on the 2-stroke paid for the additional motor.

Take care,
mlc

[Hawgeye]

I too would recommend the 2-stroke. The cost savings on the motor will allow you to buy more other goodies and the 50 hp will scream past any 40 4-stroke on the market. It is lighter and likely a little snappier too. The new 2-strokes are queiter than they used to be and if you do not troll, the smoke will never get to you. Save the money, get the 2-stroke!

[s-bone]

I had to make the same choice but between a 50hp 4 stroke and a 60hp 2 stroke. I went with the 60hp and like it. I don't troll and wanted a little more speed. I use a bow mount for muskies and transom mount for walleyes.

[love fishin]

I had a 16 ft yar craft with a fifty merc 4-stroke tiller. My brother-in-law had a 16ft warrior with a sixty two-stroke tiller merc. Maybe one mile per hour difference when I ran next to him. I trolled just as slow and much quieter. no smoke super service and great reliability. My motor was used at a canadian camp for one year then taken back to the factory and then they ship them to merc dealers to sell. I got it at a super price as a one year old. It was in great shape and was a super motor. I have since moved to a bigger rig but witha 75 2 stroke suzuki. I really miss the 4 stroke. It was my baby.

Best wishes and may whatever you buy be good for you.

[Gilly]

I'll chime in for the two stroke as well. I went with a 70hp 2 stroke and saved more than enough to buy a 8hp four stroke kicker for trolling. My neighbor went with a 70 hp four stroke and he doesn't have near the same response given it's weight. Of course there are many other factors to consider. But I am very happy with my choice.

[steve]

I'd say get with the times and get a 4 stroke, anything under 100 horse these days, in my opinion the 4 stroke wins in every category.

-much better resale
-no smoke
-better economy
-no messing with oil
-quiet
-better for the environment
-same performance(50 horsepower is 50 horsepower), different type of powerband yes but all things considered they are fairly equal.

I've got an 80 on my boat and I can backtroll with it, and I'm crawling! Guess what, I don't need to hang another motor off the back of my boat. I should say that I don't think 4 strokes will make kickers obsolete, because they won't but for many applications (trolling raps at night), my 4 stroke is quiet and plenty slow.

Since Yamaha has been mentioned lets put to rest these claims about 4strokes being overweight.

Yamaha 60 2stroke - 228lbs
Yamaha 60 4stroke - 244lbs (16 pound difference)

Yamaha 50 2stroke - 194lbs
Yamaha 50 4stroke - 233lbs (39 pound difference)

You wouldn't even notice the difference!

Do yourself a favor and buy the four stroke.

[brian1895]

From what I understand, the industry will eventually all have to go 4 stroke due to the EPA standards. Does that sound right? If so, why not go with the 4 stroke now, it'll save you money in the long run.

[KP]

It's almost 2002 and I can't believe some people still recommend 2 strokes for all the wrong reasons. MPH and weight. A year ago, Bass and Walleye Boats Mag tested 25 HP outboards and the Suzuki 4 stroke was the fastest in it's class, including 2 strokes, AND heaviest at 236 pounds. I bought the 30 HP version of the same motor pushing a similar size and weight boat to what your looking at and I hit and acceptable 30 MPH on the GPS.

If you can get a 40 HP 4 stroke for the same or a little more than a 50 HP 2 stroke, get the 4 stroke. The difference in speed between a 40 and 50 on your boat is only a few miles an hour. On the largest lake you list on your website, the difference from end to end will be a minute or two. And getting there while sitting next to a quieter, clean burning motor will be much more enjoyable. You'll be happier in the long run and have much better resale.

And if your not trolling for Stripers in the winter with top waters, your missing a ton of fun. I used to live on and fish Lake Granbury SW of Fort Worth. Couldn't wait to get out in the sleet storms. The nastier the storm, the better the Striper fishing.

[luredaddy]

Believe it!! They are faster, they are lighter, they are cheaper, they are more dependable, they are easier to work on, they are a proven design, etc...

[tx_basser]

Thanks again guys. I was talking with my dealer and he said he had not hardly sold any.

That got me to thinking that nobody was buying them, because there was something wrong.

I am still undecided.

[perchjerker]

I have a Merc 15 hp 4 stroke big foot elec start and elec tilt. Just love it. My only complaint is that when I am trolling and the waves are kicking a bit, the darn thing is so smooth, quiet and stink free I think it stalled out! A few times I had to rev it up to make sure it was still running. They are that quiet!

[jim c]

2 stroke or not 2 stroke thats the question.wheather it is deeper in the deep part than in the .......which is heaver a ton of feathers or a ton of lead.......out dam spot out........ jim c. dang its cold out.

[River_eye]

All I'll say, is that once you run a 4-stroke, you'll never go back.

Sure, 2-stroke engines have proved them selves, they've proved that they are one of the most environmentally damaging things that people have ever built.

Times are changing, 4-stroke sales are steadily increasing, and before long, the stubborn ones with their 2-strokes won't be able to give their motors away because the government will phase them out.

[KwikStik]

It's a no brainer, get the 4 stroke.

[PJM]

tx_basser

Well you have a lot of opinions here and it is a tough call. Here are somethings we just don't know

(1) - Which engine has beter life. Is it a four stroke or a two stroke. Two stroke has less moving parts

(2) - Someone said better resale value. Please show me the
statistics


(3)- Better fuel economy? Yes they get better fuel economy at lower rpms but wide open there almost the same.

(3) You don't have to mess with oil. I have a four stroke and I have to change the oil and dispose of it.

(4)- The smoke from a two stroke. Well, what year are we talking about
1960 or 2002. Oils burn much cleaner now so they smoke less for the most part. Some are running 100 to 1.

I own both and right now there is more history on two strokes the four strokes so time will tell. Four stroke are a wave of the future but just because somebody bought one does and used it one season make it a great engine. I myself have used one for one season and so far so good.

[Hawgeye]

Thanks PJM. Couldn't have said it better myself. I for one am for a cleaner environment but there is a limit to when. My folks bought a VCR at $700 when they first came out. Did I, no. 2 years later I bought one for $200 and it worked great for like 10 years and was a cheap model.

Moral of the story, 4-strokes are still expensive, still heavier, still not that much better for the money for now. I WILL have a 4-stroke in the near future; however, I have no complaints about my present 125hp Merc Carbed motor. Starts right up all the time, runs very strong and did not miss a beat this summer (except when my son turned my gas to between reserve and normal!).

I get from point "A" to point "B" virtually as efficiently as any other guy with a 4-stroke and I saved about $3k from the Honda that I looked at. Guess what, I can buy a Genesis Autopilot and a 4-stroke kicker for that amount. Does that increase the fishability of my boat? YES!

[Hawgeye]

Thanks PJM. Couldn't have said it better myself. I for one am for a cleaner environment but there is a limit to when. My folks bought a VCR at $700 when they first came out. Did I, no. 2 years later I bought one for $200 and it worked great for like 10 years and was a cheap model.

Moral of the story, 4-strokes are still expensive, still heavier, still not that much better for the money for now. I WILL have a 4-stroke in the near future; however, I have no complaints about my present 125hp Merc Carbed motor. Starts right up all the time, runs very strong and did not miss a beat this summer (except when my son turned my gas to between reserve and normal!).

I get from point "A" to point "B" virtually as efficiently as any other guy with a 4-stroke and I saved about $3k from the Honda that I looked at. Guess what, I can buy a Genesis Autopilot and a 4-stroke kicker for that amount. Does that increase the fishability of my boat? YES!

[Chaz]

I would purchase the 2 cycle. The initial cost savings,less parts to potentially fail, reliable oil injection systems with the use of bio degradable synthetic oils keep me running 2 strokes. I plan to buy a new 2 cycle before they are phased out!

Chaz.

[Chaz]

I would purchase the 2 cycle. The initial cost savings,less parts to potentially fail, reliable oil injection systems with the use of bio degradable synthetic oils keep me running 2 strokes. I plan to buy a new 2 cycle before they are phased out!

Chaz.

[Spurdog]

On a tiller, where you sit right beside the engine, a four stroke is the way to go. With my 50 Honda four stroke, I can still carry on a conversation on plane, and hear out of my left ear when I stop to put out the lines. My only problem is it uses so little gas that the gas gets really old before it gets used up, with my 18 gallon tank. I look forward to upgrading to a more powerful, lighter weight, injected four stroke engine next time around--they are getting better all the time.

[mlc]

SD, been doing any Blackmouth fishing?

mlc

[River_eye]

You must remember, that any synthetic oils that are biodegradable, will only biodegrade on land, they still do the same amount of damage as any old oil slick on the water. It's a trick to make you think you're being environmentally responsible.

[River_eye]

You must remember, that any synthetic oils that are biodegradable, will only biodegrade on land, they still do the same amount of damage as any old oil slick on the water. It's a trick to make you think you're being environmentally responsible.

[River_eye]

(1) Not sure about reliability. I think it has more to do with how you treat and maintain it, rather than it's design.


(2) Resale value: Pick up any classified ad section and see for yourself, compare Honda's with Mercs


(3)- Better fuel economy: It is very easy to notice, whether you run it wide open most of the time or not. It's acceleration that makes the difference, 2-strokes suck lots of gas while getting up on plain.

(3) You don't have to mess with oil? With a 2-stroke, you have to mess with oil every time you fill up instead once every 6 months. Also, disposing of your 4-stroke oil safely should give you a cleaner conscience than a 2-stroke owner who disposes his oil in the lake and atmosphere.

(4)- Oil smoke: 1960 or 2002, doesn't matter, oil being burned creates oil smoke, same now as then, less now, but it's still there, and it still makes me light headed.

[River_eye]

(1) Not sure about reliability. I think it has more to do with how you treat and maintain it, rather than it's design.


(2) Resale value: Pick up any classified ad section and see for yourself, compare Honda's with Mercs


(3)- Better fuel economy: It is very easy to notice, whether you run it wide open most of the time or not. It's acceleration that makes the difference, 2-strokes suck lots of gas while getting up on plain.

(3) You don't have to mess with oil? With a 2-stroke, you have to mess with oil every time you fill up instead once every 6 months. Also, disposing of your 4-stroke oil safely should give you a cleaner conscience than a 2-stroke owner who disposes his oil in the lake and atmosphere.

(4)- Oil smoke: 1960 or 2002, doesn't matter, oil being burned creates oil smoke, same now as then, less now, but it's still there, and it still makes me light headed.

[PJM]

River_eye

I stated an opinion to a question that tx_basser posted. You gave me no factual information in your post other then the fact you own a Honda and you love four strokes because you bought one. I have owned and I sell Honda power products and they make nice products. Being a mechanic I do no which one last longer but I won't say. I read your posts on other topics and I have pick up some nice tips from you. Merry Christmas...........

[Matches]

TX_Basser: The way you worded your question, that you go to your spot, shut down, etc. Why spend the extra money on a 4-stroke? Don't get me wrong, the 4-strokes are beautiful machines. It sounds like you're not burning dozens of tanks a gas in a season. The Yamaha 2-strokes are smooth running motors. Oil injected also so you are still not messing with oil at every fill. Instead of waying a 40-4stroke vs. a 50 2-stroke, it sounds like you should be waying a 40-2 stroke to a 50 4-stroke. If you are concerned more with gas milege, resale value and the epa standards, then bite the bullet and buy a 50HP 4 stroke. The new epa standards are not going to make your 2 stroke obsolete. I think you would be happy with the Yamaha 40hp 2 stroke, and I beleve it will still hold good resale value.

[River_eye]

PJM, you stated your opinion, I stated mine. What part of my opinion do you not feel is factual?

There is somthing wrong these days when everybody needs numbers in front of them in order for somone to believe in anything. What happened to using good old common sense.

BTW, here are some facts for you. I do not own a honda. Actually, I don't own a boat at all. I spend my summer guiding at a canadian fishing lodge, which helps me to pay for the B.sc. degree that I am taking at U of Manitoba. Three years ago, we used Merc 2-stroke 30's on 16' aluminum boats. Everybody used to have to carry over 5 canadian gallons of fuel with them for the day, or risk running out of gas. Now, we have Merc 40 4-strokes on 18 ft boats and almost never have to worry about burning over 5 gallons of fuel. Also, we have two new 2-stroke merc 60's which I have to guide out of once and a while, and the oil smoke and the noise and the erratic idle is what I notice right away. All my guests, whether they know anything about motors or not, prefer the 4-strokes, sure the 2-strokes are a little more zippy, but the 4-strokes deliver a more pleasurable boating experience overall. All of our American guests can't be wrong. Those are my facts.

[jim c]

1. a bad seal on a 2x never leaked oil into the water,on the floor on the bottom of your car because it was laying down. 2.vapors of oil are constantly being burnt in 4x from crankcase,never in a 2x. 3.4x used oil in carcenogentic (ever get some on your hands?..a2x does not do this. 4. used 4x oil recycle centers do what with the oil...guess... they burn it. duhhhh??? 5. nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah nah, hay hay !!!

[jim c]

1. a bad seal on a 2x never leaked oil into the water,on the floor on the bottom of your car because it was laying down. 2.vapors of oil are constantly being burnt in 4x from crankcase,never in a 2x. 3.4x used oil in carcenogentic (ever get some on your hands?..a2x does not do this. 4. used 4x oil recycle centers do what with the oil...guess... they burn it. duhhhh??? 5. nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah nah, hay hay !!!

[jim c]

6. worn rings,valve guides,valve seals makes a 4x a real oil burner but in a 2x never causes increased oil consumption.7 . Im still wating for the 2x wankel turbo to come back.8 nah nah nah ...etc... jim c

[jim c]

6. worn rings,valve guides,valve seals makes a 4x a real oil burner but in a 2x never causes increased oil consumption.7 . Im still wating for the 2x wankel turbo to come back.8 nah nah nah ...etc... jim c

[PJM]

River_eye

After reading your post I can see you have a chip on your shoulder about something. It is hard to put alot of stock in what you say considering you don't even own a boat. Just because you guide and go to school does not mean you know alot about boats and motors. I take back what I said, I now can't stand reading your negative posts. Merry Christmas........

[jim c]

How did this get in to an eviromental issue,that wasnt his question. You want enviromental... paddel or get a sailboat. simple!2 stroke or 4 they both burn fuel,wheather its oil in the water or crankcase oil up the generator smokestack. Which one is better in the big picture overall "I dont know". Just because you took your crank oil to a recycling center does not mean you did the enviroment any good.

[CharlieB]

Went through the 2 stroke versus 4 stroke question this fall. I priced four motors to make my decision.

60 Yamaha 4 Stroke $6100.00
50 Honda 4 stroke $5850.00
60 Mercury 2 stroke $4350.00
60 Yamaha 2 stroke $4250.00

I bought the 60 Yamaha 2 stroke and saved the $1850.00 for trolling motors and electronics. I heard a 60 Yamaha 2 stroke running at the lake a few years ago and said that that would be my next motor. Very smooth and quiet. Also I fish like you and if I troll it will be with an electric on the back. Happy Holidays

[River_eye]

2-stroke wankel turbo? Never heard of the thing. This is different from the wankel rotary engines used in RX7's right?

[River_eye]

2-stroke wankel turbo? Never heard of the thing. This is different from the wankel rotary engines used in RX7's right?

[River_eye]

PJM, usually it isn't until January and February that people start to get cabin fever and start making posts like yours, guess your a little early, a little stressful around home, maybe?

So, what you're saying, is that, in order for somone to know about outboard motors and boats, they have to own one. Am I right?

I drive boats for a living, big and small, but I don't know anything about them? That's like saying a pilot who owns his own aircraft knows more about planes than the commercial pilot, simply because the commercial pilot doesn't own his own plane. Money doesn't equal knowledge, you should have learned that by now.

Also, you think that because I like a certain engine design better than another, my posts are negative? Don't worry, you don't have to explain it to me, I understand the cabin fever thing. It usually hits me later on in the winter. Merry christmas to you too.

[Marcus]

I own a 225 merc a 15 merc 4 stroke the 15 is whiper quite when idleing the 225 is not bad considering the size. the new 2 stokes are fantastic motors so are the 4 strokes. i go every year on a trip to NW ontario and i don't take my 20footer all the way up so we rent a boat up there 16ft. alumcrafts with 40horse 4 stroke they are quite noisy at top end which on the big lake that we fish on we run wide open for about 20 to 30 min. they take for ever to get on plan with two guys in the boat, with a strong head wind or a third person in the boat you have to get out on the front of the boat to get it on plan. I guess what i saying is if sound,performance, and gas milege are the three major things from what i've read here. i still talk to my wife siting right next to me just the same as i do to the guy sitting in front of me in the smaller rental boatwill run down the water, the performance of the 2 stroke way out performs the 4 stroke in my opinion, the last question is gas well i never ran two same sized horse power motors side by side to tell but from what i here the 4 stroke would win out... Half a dozen one two the other do what you feel is the right choice and be happy take them for a test drive amd deciede for yourself..

I'm not going to address the enviromental concerns of either cuz i don't fell educated enough about one or the other..

Can't we all just get along its cold as azz out side and we all would rather be on the water than in the house with the inlaws..

Happy New year everone
Marcus

[Al]

Since you are naming Bass and Walleye boats as a source, I suggest you read the current article on four strokes. Over and over again, performace is mentioned as a let down. On larger engines, the author reports that the engines seem to be laboring and that he let off at WOT because it sounded as if the motor was going to come apart. All those valves aren't so quiet at WOT...the author said the WOT noise was downright annoying.

My experience with my hunting partners in 40 - 80 HP 4strokes is not all that good. Better gas mileage, a bit quieter. But in a side by side with equal HP under hunting conditions (heavy load), the two stroke is a runaway winner. I'm now reading reports that 4 strokes aren't all that clean due to the lack of cat. converters...and are detuned to meet emission specs.

Sorry, but until they pry it from my cold dead hands...I'm a two stroke owner.

[Joe]

I'm about to buy a boat with a 50hp and was just about convinced to go with a 4 stroke but I'm not so sure now.My biggest concern with staying with the 2 stroke is 5yrs down the road will my motor be allowed on some midwest lakes or canadian lakes?Does anyone know?If it will I might just stay with the 2 stroke.

[john]

We're happy for you Al, but not sure the big engine article is very relavent to this particular question. I too agree that these engines (200 hp range), are still in their infancy, I wouldn't buy one yet.

Mid sized engines in this range (like you mentioned 40-80) will continue to be dominated my 4 strokes. I now run an 80 four stroke, coming from a 90 two stroke, Al there is ZERO comparison, the two stroke is a dying breed. Have you owned both? I owned a 95 Merc 75 and a 99 Johnson 90 and now own a Yam 80 four stroke. There isn't one thing I like more about either of the two strokes, not one. Power is right there with the 90, even though I'm giving up 10 horses, the power especially the mid range is impressive. No smoke, fumes, smooth idiling, quiet (although they aren't much quieter at WOT), easy starting - flat out a better motor.

I'm glad that you'll keep buying the two strokes, you probably still prefer 8 track tapes to CD's - I mean they still work decent.

[Tom P]

Why take the chance. Go with the 4 stroke. If they can get away with banning more lakes, they will. So you would be smart to go with the 4 stroke. Until they ban those for" electic motor only lakes." Minnkota is working on a 50 hp electic motor so they will be ready when that comes along.:+

[KwikStik]

Get the 4 stroke forchristsakes!! Don't let these 2 stroke tightwads talk you out of a better motor. Man, I can't believe this thread!

[steve]

This is stupid, I totally agree. Why would anyone in there right mind by a mid range 2 stroke now? I've got a huge dealership 2 miles from my house, they told me that from 25 horse to 90 horse that over 75% of outboards sold now are 4 stroke.

Get with the times and buy the 4 stroke.

[Joe]

I agree 100% that 4 Strokes are the answer but some of you people have to understand that not everyone can afford a 4 stroke so naturally they will brag up the two strokes.I think that society is leaning towards 4 strokes because of the noise and emissions, but please, it is not the end of the world if all you can afford is a 2 stroke. It is still better than sitting at home and who knows, maybe in a few years when times are better, maybe you can upgrade.

[Bell Curve]

Why?

I agree with most suggestions noted whether pro4 or pro2. Either way, it's tx_basser's decision.

What is being ignored are fundamental supply demand considerations:

Supply AND demand for 4strokes will inevitably INCREASE dramatically (exclusive). As a natural result 4stroke prices WILL inevitably DECREASE dramatically (flatten out).

Year-to-year supply AND demand for 2 cyles will obviously decrease until phased out.

Increased demand for 4strokes will excite competition for less weight AND greater performance SO the 4s motors will continue to become lighter and more efficient. 4 strokes HAVEN'T standardized YET(like the first VCRs, microwaves, etc..- they were "BIG" until the standard was set). Something to think about.

The resale argument is almost a moot point; both resale values will decrease (more than most think) until 4stroke motors achieve a stable and competitive standard.

For a 40, 50, 60 hp (virtually all but 15hp and less). No brainer: 2 cycle. Especially if you plan on owning it for 3 or more years.

Why? MONEY; 2 cycles are a BARGAIN compared to a 4stroke.

It's true that mid-range 4strokes currently and considerably outsell the 2strokes but is the best painter the one who paints the most pictures? Don't brag about it because it SEEMS to make sense.

If a guy wants to fork out 25% more for a motor without 25% more value than God bless 'em.

I understand that we're all entitled to our own thinking. Heck, if I were still too idealistic and still a bit euphoric of my own moral wisdom like River Eye, I'd run someone else's 4stroke too.

[River_eye]

Two different mindframes my friend. If money was the only thing considered in every purchase these days, this world would be pretty ugly, even moreso than now. It all comes down to what you value in life, maybe you should ask yourself that.

[dave]

Watch the adds this spring, a modest rig say in the $7500 range - boat motor trailer with say a 40 horse motor. The package will come with a 2 stroke and for $300 more you can upgrade to the four stroke. In this case why would you buy the 2 stroke?

[Al]

In fact I did own a Honda 80HP. It was a fine engine. No smoke, quiet. I was a partner in this boat. It performed sub par to the motor it replaced. It wasn't as snappy, didn't have the lowend to midrange jump, and top end, well, it's the same old story. I'm glad you all like your 4's, but as I said in other threads, unless you guide in the south, I doubt you can make a justification for the gas. I owned a DFI motor for two seasons on a team boat and the fuel savings while nice, didn't add up to the premium in cost. Similar story in my experience with 4 strokes. I want something that jumps when I hit it, and the 80 Honda I had/ part owned, didn't have it. It wasn't prop, it wasn't set up, it just doesnt' have the same grunt as 2's I've owned. My point in mentioning the BandW boats article is that 4 strokes aren't the sweeping savior everyone says they are. Only now is it getting out that they aren't as clean as the folks would like you to think. If you think they are clean, ask Olson for the link to the epa site....

[jim c]

yes let the marketplace decide, the best will surface if all the info is avalable.but i must say that enviromnentaly speaking no nunn nada waters have been runied by sportsfishermens boats and motors compaired to the industrial& humal waste management damage.my boat noesnt run on pcb,benzine, mercury 24d, 245t or produce ecoli.1/2 the sewers dump in the river when a hard rain occurs overloading treatment plants,run off lines run into sewer lines, sewer lines run into runoff lines.the dif between 2x & 4x is not even on the same page in comparison.jim c

[lundfisherman]

go with the value 2 stroke.Get more boat with your savings thats what you fish out of.

[john]

Al,

Are you sure you owned a Honda 80? Pretty sure that Honda never made an 80, maybe a 75 or a 90 but not an 80.

Do yourself a favor take a 60 yamaha, or Suzuki 4stroke and compare it to any 2 stroke 60 - you won't be able to tell a power difference. You will however quickly notice however the stink is gone, gas lasts longer and you don't have to yell at one another while the boat is moving.

It's humorous to me how some people will go to the mat for dying technology, get with the times!

[Matches]

Responding to Joes Qestions: Joe, I never heard that any state or govenment is planning on banning the use of a 2 stroke engine with the new epa standards. I believe it just means the new motors being made will need to meet the new standards. If anyone really knows the ins and outs of it, we need to hear from them. I can't imagine that Canada (or any state) would make all resort owners replace their 2 stroke engings, etc... I don't like this get with the times answer.
The new 2 strokes are sweet manchines. Bell Curve's answer makes a whole lot of sense. Keep in mind they are still making 2 strokes. If you haven't run a new 2 stroke lately, find someone who has one and check it out. As Bell Curve wrote, the 4 strokes have not standardized yet, so a 4 stroke today could be different than the 4 strokes made 5 years from now.

[Tom P]

From what I have heard, the old 2 strokes are grandfathered in. But the "greens" can pressure their congressman to change that in a heart beat. That would most likely happen down the road when 4 strokes are the norm.

[Cangl]

My gas/oil stats for the year (so far) 40+ gallons of gas 3 quarts of oil. Fishing twice a day 2-4 days a week. My buddies Aluma Craft with its 45 gallon tank and gallon and a half oil resvoir? This years total would not fill either! Big motors go with the 4 other than that no matter how hard I try I will never burn as much of anything that those large 4"s would in a day? Not a big water boat that I own but very ready and capable, I guess you could say "big in puddles"and a little bit goes a long way.

[Bell Curve]

What?

[Hawgeye]

I need to know who your dealer is so I can go purchase a new package from them! I was looking to pay upwards of $3000 more for a comparable 4-stroke last year. Of course, that was a bigger motor than the 50 - 60 hp range but come on! 4 strokes are the future but as of today, you get more bang for your buck out of a new 2 stroke.(period)

[dave]

$3000 more, I wouldn't do it either - that's crazy.

[mlc]

Dying technology? Your killing me! Do you realize how many resources have gone into FICHT and HPDI development? It seems to me that this is a clear indication that 2-stroke technology is here to stay. I do not believe that the power to weight ratio of 4-stroke motors will be overcome real soon. They are simply too heavy.

If you want performance there is really only one choice in my mind, and that is 2-stroke technology. Time may change that. We'll see!

Dying technology?

Take care,
mlc

[strikes]

Haven't seen it mentioned yet, IMHO the 4 Stroke would be a better choice if you are planning on owning the boat for a number of years. The fuel economy will make up the difference in purchase price over time. Fished out of 2 boats this year, one a 150 2 stroke, the other a 115 4 stroke. Total gas in the 115 four stroke for the year was 40 gal. I used 40 gal gas in the 150 2 stroke in a single day, and still had to use the kicker to get the last 5 miles back to the ramp (Which was a 9 HP 4 stroke). I know there are not even close to the same HP, but gas usage was very, very different. If you plan on owning the boat for only a couple of years, the 2 stroke may save $$.

If you plan on using the boat for recreation, (Skiing, tubing) the 2 stroke will get out of the hole faster. Prop's can compensate, but they are expensive too.

If you don't think 2 strokes can be regulated out of areas, your not paying attention to what Yellowstone has done to snowmobiles. It can happen and fast! When the Green interests put their attention on fishermen, 2 strokes will suffer. I dread the day of not being able to go to one of my favorite lakes when my motor is banned from the water.

[River_eye]

That was just my idealistic moral wisdom speaking.

[Huh?]

Wisdom?

[River_eye]

read the thread will ya? ie - post 44

[Huh?]

I see.

Did you read "euphoric of"?

[River_eye]

oops, wrong button.

[River_eye]

Yes I did. Just having fun with it.

[Matches]

Strikes: I'm not sure if Greenpeace had anything to do with Yellowstone (but I wouldn't be surprised) The yellowstone thing (they claim) was only due to noise. They may reverse that decision as they are/have (or somwhat) up at voyagers National Park. Anyway, there is an interesting topic posted about greenpeace right now here on walleyecentral under general discussion. http://www.walleyecentral.com/cgi-bin/dcf/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=13058&forum=generaldiscussion&omm=0
The hunters and fisherman over the years have not gotten envolved in politics. These members of Greenpeace, Sierra Club, etc.. They got their organization act together many years ago. Their members are everywhere. They're the teachers in our schools,etc. and many of them probably work right in our Department of Resources. My point is, many of them are in careers that can and does influence what our representatives decide. We have got to do the same. In Minnesota the fish and game coalition is about just that. Getting Hunters and Fisherman, involved. Check out their site at www.gameandfishcoalition.com. It pertains to Minnesota, but my guess the problems are similar in many if not all states.
(I vote for the 2 stroke)

[Joe]

Matches,Very well said!I wish more people would get involved with things going on right around them.Thanks for responding to my question the other day,makes sense to me.
Joe

[xctycoach]

River_eye, e-mail me at xctycoach@home.com if you would. You seem to know some things about biodegradable oil I'd like to know too. I'm paying extra bucks to get a biodegradable oil. If it isn't going to work I'd like to know.

Thanks,
Craig

[xctycoach]

River_eye, e-mail me at xctycoach@home.com if you would. You seem to know some things about biodegradable oil I'd like to know too. I'm paying extra bucks to get a biodegradable oil. If it isn't going to work I'd like to know.

Thanks,
Craig

[Chaz]

But doesn’t that oil film get washed up on the shore with wind/wave action? I still believe it is better than petroleum derived oil.

[ebijack]

had too add my 2cents......
1) 4 strokes..without a converter (and until technology increases) still have terrible emissions. the motors can only run/cool(won't get into all the details) etc at 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio part throttle and if every able to keep alive 13.1:1 wot, but 12.5:1 is usually needed to keep the valves cool so they don't pound into the seats.
2) 2 strokes with todays technology meet 2006 emission standards(actually in 1990(for vehicles) we met 1996 vehicle emissions standards using converters...those are the kicker...can't get them to last past 25,000 miles...all that technology brought forth the ficth/opti-max etc. not everything that was developed has even been adapted to the outboards yet....
it's real hard to compare "gas milage" in a boat...a motor on a dyno is where you could really compare it. you have correction factors so everything will be the same...weather, air density etc.
hull difference, loaded weights, weather condtions etc all make the comparing in a boat difficult. comparing a (lets say) 115 to a 150 is like comparing a 4 cyl econobox to a 6cylor small 8 cyl midsize car...way to many differences!
(idling are some of the worst emissions,incomplete burn etc, that's why alot of vehicles have to have pre-converters so they lightoff at light loads and burn/convert the gases). part throttle, the 4 strokes have a very slight advantage in fuel management, but the dfi's are gettting there very quickly.
with the advances both 4 and 2 strokes will get better and better. if "greenpeace" were able to stop 2 strokes, they will go after 4 strokes next. emissions are emissions IMHO for outboards i prefer the less moving parts. at least we all aren't stuck with only ONE choice..ain't america great!
i know i left out a ton of info, but it's hard to type all this stuff and brain doesn't remember everything over the past 20+yrs of working on enging/vehicle development..i'm not an engineer...just the kitchen help that does the hands on work.

[PJM]

ebijack


This is a very well written post and I understand it from a mechanics standpoint. I would like to see if any one responds.

[fishfinder]

ebijack.. you're right, it's hard to compare the two. Ive been interested in watching this thread because I have a Suzuki 70 hp four stroke on my 16 foot Fisher. I bought the Suzuki 3 years ago to replace a 70hp Evinrude 2 stroke that was on this boat and the difference between the two motors has been amazing. The Suzuki uses far less gas than the Evinrude did. I use this boat to pull the kids skiing as well as fishing with it and gas consumption has been much less in both cases. The Suzuki pushes this boat at 36mph loaded on my GPS and the Evinrude would do about 32mph so I gained a bit there too. There is also a difference when trolling with a breeze from behind me, NO exhaust smell. I agree that price is a factor in the buying decision, but there are some real advantages to the four strokes. Oh, by the way, guys at the landings ask me if my motor is really running... I love that.

[mike]

You'll find that the only guys that will stand up for the old technology are the ones that recently bought the 2 strokes. The myth regarding not as much power with the 4 stroke is crazy.

My boat had a 75 two stroke and pushed in 32 mph, and then I upgraded my motor and went to an 80 four stroke(both Yamahas) and now I get 36.5mph. Five horsepower in difference would usually make this much difference, and I should note both setups were put together at optimum mounting holes heights and props.

[ebijack]

just some more to think about....
howdy fishfinder, glad to hear you like your 70 4stroke...(70hp is 70hp no matter how many cyl's, 2 or 4 stroke. "mileage" is worse every time you add cyl's, just as a note). just curious as to how old your 2stroke was..when your 4 stroke gets that old then you really could start to kind of compare, kind of. (engine ware etc) also, did you get the right prop for both motors to get optimum performance or just run what's installed..this really makes a difference in performance and "mileage". not picking on you, just adding that comparing 10yr/20yr/30 up to 50yr old technology to today's really isn't a fair comparision in "performance/mileage"
just adding EFI to a 2 stroke over carbs makes that eng rev much much faster. ask any pro who still runs EFI (i know a few) because the "dfi's" don't jump (rev fast) to get out of the hole like EFI's.
also, if you think back, your car when it had carb's had poor mileage/performance compared to today's EFI,PFI etc. technology has really improved all engines as a whole. and that technology always cost $$$, but i think it's worth it in the long run.
folks on this board talk about saving money...well, if you have a motor that runs, your never going to make your money back buy buying a new 4 stroke or any motor. we pay to get what works/runs better and adds to our enjoyment. (the "american way" which helps keep this country running) if no one spent money, not many would be working. and if we don't post, we wouldn't have this great site and great folks to meet!

[Al]

Actually I have gotten with the times. I'm a little smarter than to buy hook line and sinker what you say about four strokes as I say I was a partner in a boat that had one. I'll bet you were one of those who died with Betamax.

[Al]

One more thing....sorry if I can't give you the exact HP on the boat. I was a partner on it. I've owned several boats in the last couple of years. In fact, since 96, I've owned 6 different boats and partnered on two. I've had DFI, Four stroke and traditionally aspirated engines. In my boat owning experience, the four stroke was the poorest performer, while it was probably the best made on the market. They don't hold a candle to DFI's. Like my buddy at Allison says, when the 4 stroke OB companies get serious about performance, and that includes midrange engines, we'll listen. Speaking of allison, you ever read the test in BandW boats with the 90HP honda? What they didn't tell you is a 90 TWO STROKE smoked it big time in another test at Kentucky Lake. Yes there was fuel difference, but to run the same speed as the 90 Honda, the two stroke turned about 4200 RPM. That 2 stroke is just getting warm at that point. You won't believe this because you don't want to.

[Al]

You could easily see the speed difference in the tolerance of HP. If the two stroke was at the low end of the 10% tolerance and the 4 stroke at the high end...there could be a huge difference in REAL DYNO HP. That could easily explain the difference. Just like now, it's been reported that the Higher HP four strokes listed at 225 are not putting out near that much HP. Something to do with meeting the EPA specs. I believe it because I've sold equipment to places like ebjack describes. Temperatures, pressures, fuel quality, and emissions standards all fluctuate or effect performance (differently) from motor to motor ( in automobiles). I'm sure it's the same in boats. eb is right on regarding cat converters and 25K miles. The test center I do the most work with says standards on those cars and the cost of the equipment is nonsense compared to how long they remain effective. That's an entirely differnt thread though.

[KP]

Your statement about EFI improving performance is correct. That's why the mid-range HP 4 strokes with EFI are performing as good as or better than carborated 2 strokes. I'm not aware of any 50 HP 2 strokes with EFI. I do know Suzuki was the first with EFI in a mid-range 4 stroke and their motors have incredible performance. Now Mercury has also put EFI on their mid-range 4 strokes but not their 2 strokes. Why is that? Maybe they don't want to waste their time on aging technology and instead choose to invest their resources into improving mid-range 4 stroke performance.

Remember, we're not talking about 225's, 150, Opti,s etc. This guy has the opportunity to buy a mid-range size motor. The direction the manufacturers have chosen should give the consumer a clue.

[steve]

no kidding, why is it so difficult for others to see the light, mid range 2 strokes are going to go away.

[Al]

And because that's federally mandated that makes the four stroke a better all around motor? Kind of like the jump to air bags and what it was doing to small kids. Just because it's mandated and the 2's are going away doesn't change the fact the 4's don't perform as good or are as simple as the 2's. The only reason they may go away is because big brother says so.

[mike]

I went through this process recently, compared the following motors on the same boats, all motors were new, and here is what I found:

75 Merc 2 stroke - 37mph top end, hole shot was right there with the rest of them. Didn't idle very smooth and seemed like it was anything but refined. Overall not impressed.

70 Suzuki 4 stroke - 35 mph, hole shot was slightly worse than Merc as expected. Motor ran like a watch, trolled great, smooth motor - overall I was impressed.

80 Yamaha 4 stroke - 37.5mph, best hole shot and also ran like the suzuki. Better mid range power band than any of the motors and delivered the fastest speed. This is the motor I picked, although not EFI, it is very smooth and quiet.

70 Johnson 2 stroke - 35 mph, poor hole shot but much smoother engine over the Merc - however it doesn't have the displacement of the Merc.

after doing the testing I really would wonder why one would opt for any of the 2 strokes, price wasn't a huge deal - the four strokes are more but expect to recoup much of this if you ever sell. Plus you don't have to deal with oil, stink, noise or any of the other cons that a 2 stroke offers.

[GKirtley]

Tohatsu or Nissan makes a 50 HP with the same technology that Mercury uses (it is under license to Orbital of Australia) on the Opti-Max.
It is not your father's two-stroke!

[Eric Olson]

Mike,
One thing I wanted to briefly note is 70 Merc you ran may have been (probably) the carburated version not EFI.
On to the real reason for my post...

Not all two strokes are the same.

To really compare the 4's to the 2 strokes you need to use the newest tecnology in 2 strokes. Either Ficht, Opti or HPDI. Both will outperform and at a minimum match the 4's in all areas.
Any of these "new" technology injected engines have little if any exhaust smell, exceptional idleing qualities, great fuel economy and have no need to change oil on a regular basis since they've already cleanly burned it in the combustion process.

Remember, this is like new math:

2 plus 2 is not always 4......

Tight Lines
Big Fish
Eric Olson

[VMS]

Man...what ever happened to loving the smell of newly burned outboard gas?...nothing beats that smell!!!

Dude...where's my boat?!! Whoaa...

Actually, the smell is nice in moderation and not all the time.

I too pondered the difference, and went with the 2 stroke. I could have gotten the 4St, but could not justify the extra expense when the 50 2 stroke works very well, and with the lower oil consumption, its really not that bad.

As for the speed comparisons of the 70s above...Hard to justify that comparison when there are different gear ratios, props to match, your boat or demos on different hulls, weight and such to go with... Too many unknowns to play with.

Numbers can look good, but they also can be manipulated so much that you can make your argument great. The numbers given, will be correct, but used incorrectly (as the 70 hp example would show)

Did he do the right thing in testing: YES!! Do we all have that ability on our own boat...Not likely.

If you are running and stopping, I would feel the 2 is the way to go. The amount of oil used at high speed is very low, and decarbonizer keeps things very clean.

As for trolling, playing with fuel air and possibly timing can get an engine to run really smooth, but can hinder hole shot...all depends on how you use it.

Steve

[david]

Eric,

Isn't the question at hand regarding mid range outboards, if so where do I find a ficht, Opti or HPDI in that range? That's what I thought, there isn't any. With that said, I've compared a new 2 stroke Merc 75 (which is carbed) to a Yamaha 80 4 stroke (again is carbed) there is NO COMPARISON, one idles rough and the other is as smooth as it gets! Drive both of these motors as I have and you will soon come to the same realization as I did, these mid range 2's can't hold a candle to the four strokes.

[KP]

Eric, read the post before you reply. The guy has a choice of a 50 2 stroke or 40 4 stroke. Who makes a mid-range 2 stroke with Ficht, Opti or HPDI. NO ONE!

As I noted just 3 posts ago, the question is not about what design is best in a 150-225. That's where Mercury and other manufacturers are still investing in 2 stroke technology. But in the MID-RANGE class of motors, i.e. 70 HP and under, manufacturers are investing in 4 stroke technology.

[River_eye]

I'm sure it is better. Unfortunately, like most companies wanting to sell a product, they don't lie, they mislead, by not telling you the whole truth. It's the same as the so-called biodegradable soap, it will break down on land, but not in water. Eventually it will wash a shore, and be broken down, so in this respect, it's better, but it's still free to do damage while it's floating around.

[WALKER]

Go 2 stroke for bass'n unless you run very long on big lakes or rivers. When we check hour meters or computers on one season bass boats we are always amazed at the low number compared to walleye boats.

[ebijack]

alot of the info given on these posts, were not actually in response to which motor to get but only to be informative about the technology there is today and how some of it came about. also, untill emission measurements are published for folks to read and compare, don't for a minute believe they are so "low emissions". any EFI car unless it had well over 100,000 miles could it pass any emissons test today without it's converter. and maybe not even then...the standards in alot of states change when a vehicle passes 100,000 miles...."past vehicle manufacture's liability".
buy what ever motor you tend to like, that's the american way. but don't knock anyone for their choice. if your knowledge leans towards 4 stroke, that's how you'll go. if your knowledge leans towards 2 strokes, that's what you'll buy till each of you learn something's better than what you used to know.

[Eric Olson]

I apologize, the post was so long I must have missed a couple... Sorry.
Evinrude does have Ficht in 75hp and up at the present time. All I would say is look for some interesting things to transpire in the mid range 2 stroke technology for the future. It works and will be able to make it for the "3 star" ratings the EPA wants for 2008.

Best of luck guys,