why not big bad 4 strokers?

[mezmorized by marbleeyez]

Tonight was the first time I've read through the entire boat and motors section. I am amazed by the huge number of Optimax problems there are....and I just looked at the ones that had OPTIMAX or OPTI in the name. If HPDI and OPTIMAX cannot be engineered correctly, whu not dump it? for a 4 stroke?

[Dutchman]

I think the 4 strokes are great, very expensive, but quite the concept. The biggest problem is Mercury doesn't build a jumbo 4 stroke and someone wanting to "opt" out of their Optimax motor would have to trade for a Yamaha or Honda 4 strke to get into that kind of Hp. This would mean they would most likely take a severe beat finacially to make this kind of a trade. Also Most Opti's still have warrantee left so Merc still has to fix them. You're right there has been lots of problems mentioned on this board in regards to them. Their "brothers", the EFI's still seem to run flawlessly though. I'm looking at purchasing a new boat again and it will not have an Opti on it.....


" Fishing is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope "

[SnellTier]

mez ...

I haven't seen posts about the HPDI's. I have seen them about the Opti motors.

Which posts do you feel draw attention to HPDI problems??

Dealers tell me they have zero problems with those engines ... one dealer telling me they have sold tons of them in the last 4 years and have had NONE come back with problems.

tomd

[mezmorized by marble eyez]

I believe I overstated by bringing HPDI into my comments, In all honesty, I wasnt even looking for thier problems. I do believe that High Pressure technology is going to fade in the long run. How can 700 PSI directly injected into a 2 stroke cylinder last? After reading and reading about the OPTIMAX,there's no way on this earth Ill be purchasing one for my 202 RCL next season. It just seems too ##### easy to blow it up.

Whats the largest 4 stroke out there now? Is it EFI?

[Dutchman]

I think all the bigger 4 strokes are EFI's. Honda and Yamaha both build 225hp 4 stroke motors.


" Fishing is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope "

[Bert]

My Yam F225 is fuel injected and is amazing. But like a previous poster stated, they aren't cheap.

[john]

Bert,

Just out of curiousity, how much better do you think you gas mileage is when compared to a 225 Optimax or HPDI? I'd love to drive in a boat with these new big 4 strokes, I love the concept!

[Hawgeye]

Not to start anything but I have to say that the Bombardier Ficht is turning into a very quality product. From all I have heard, that FICHT two stroke technology is not dead. I too would shy away from the Optimax since there still seems to be reliablity problems.

I am not ruling out the Ficht for my next motor purchase. Those larger HP 4-strokes are still very big and heavy.

[mezmorized by marble eyez]

Ok...what are we looking at as far as price on a 4 stroke 225? 18-20?

[SnellTier]

Just got my FIRST issue of Bass&Walleye Mag. It is the June one. I think there is a comparison between the 225 Honda and the 225 Yamaha for those that care to look.

Also, in addition to the 225, Yamaha also makes a 200. I haven't checked Honda.

Some of the dealers tell me that Yamaha is coming out with "mid-range" 4-stroke engines late this summer for the 2003 model year but Yamaha is being very closed-mouth about it. I have been shopping for a new boat since February but haven't pulled the trigger yet for several reasons, the mid-range 4-strokes being one of them.

I remember the days when the 100 hp motor was god-awful big. Now the "mid-range" engines are 125, 150, 175. Jeez!!!!

[Bert]

I'm not sure of specific gas consumption stats. From what I remember reading, B&W Boats magazine did a comparison of a Yam F200 vs. a 200 HPDI on the same boat and the mpg burn was essentially the same at WOT. They also claimed the decibels were approx. the same at WOT. One thing I (and others) have noticed, is the 4-stroke growl at WOT is not as high-pitched as that of a 2-stroke.

I do know that my F225 is basically silent at idle, doesn't vibrate, doesn't smoke and is easy on fuel at cruising speeds. And the only oil you ever see is during your annual oil change.

You definitely lose a little performance (e.g. hole shot and acceleration) with the 4-stroke, but, to me, it's more than worth it.

[Phil T.]

Although I'm fairly certain this information will be in the next Bass & Walleye Boats magazine, TrailerBoats (sister publication) new issue compared the Yamaha 225 to the Honda. Pretty much a dead heat. The Yamaha had the higher top end, the Honda was better in the mid-range. Yamaha's lower unit is more streamlined.
Somewhere in that magazine, it said that Yamaha has agreed to supply powerheads for a similar-powered Mercury. It will likely be on a different block, maybe 6 cylinder. I don't recall the particulars.

[Al]

There was another article in the early spring in BWB about big four strokes. Basically, the writters scoffed at them as performance engines. In fact, one engineer who test drove for their test of the two stroke vs four stroke on the MSX21 Javelin (he inferred it was that test) said the 4 stroke was worse at higher end speeds on fuel. It was also somewhat slower. He also said that the 4 stroke at WOT gave him the willies due to it sounding like it was laboring. He said it actually sounded like it was ready to let go it was so overlabored. 4 strokes may be great for midrange, but right now, because of weight and pokieness, they haven't caught up with two strokes.
One more thing, I'll second the person's comment about Bombardier's Ficht. I had OMC ficht, and wasn't happy, but right now, I'd say they have the edge in DFI.

And one more note...whatever dealer said they've sold tons of HPDI Yams over the last four years is telling you all a fib. The first year wasn't that long ago, and the initial offering was very hard to get. There aren't tons of them out yet. I'm not saying they are not good, I'm saying there aren't "tons" of them out from anyone yet.

[Dutchman]

With Merc having troubles with the Opti's and having a history of sharing 4 stroke technology and parts with Yamaha the thought that they would come out with a 225 4 stroke is definatley the makings of a hot rumor. I hope it's true....


" Fishing is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope "

[Dude]

What does HPDI have to do with problems? I have not read of any HPDI problems.

[samIam]

"How long can a 700 psi, direct injection, 2 Stroke motor last?"

Weeeelllllllll.... There are literally millions of 2000+psi direct injection motors out there that have run literally a million miles each. Some of 'em are even two strokes (not many anymore). Granted, they burn diesel, but the point is; don't let the pressure worry ya.

[Satchmogv]

Our dealership has sold the HPDI motors since they were introduced and we have not had ONE come back for service yet!! Can't say that about Optimax.

[Phil T.]

List price is $17,400, prop extra.
You may want to watch the crate being opened. My 90 Honda had two sets of shift/throttle controls in the crate, one for binnacle mounting, one for side mounting. Since they're worth about $400 each, why leave them behind if you've paid for them? Or trade the extra one for that prop you'll need.

[SnellTier]

Yup, Hawgeye. And, if you go to the Evinrude website, they compare gas mileage of their 2-stroke injection against the 4-stroke (if I recall correctly) and it looked to me like their 2-stroke got about 25% better gas mileage than the 4-stroke.

This will be interesting to watch.

[Bert]

In January, I was quoted right around $14K (+tax and shipping). Also did not include any rigging/cabling.

Not sure how much they are now...

Yeah, I read the article in B&W Boats by John Tiger. He's a devoted go-fast guy and his bias towards 2 strokes was pretty clear. 4-strokes will never outperform a 2 strokes speed (basic physics) but I much prefer the low growl of a 4 stroke over a 2.

And in the end, it really comes down to just that...preference.

[bobberal]

I like the sound of a wide open 2-stroke.

Of course I use to run headers and cherry bombs on my car too.

[luredaddy]

GET A 2 STROKE, while you can!! Why pay more for less!!! I like Johnsons, their 2 strokes meet the 2006 emission standards already , from what I have read and been told by my dealer! Buy what you want, but donot eliminate the 2 strokes from consideration! Yamahas would be my next choice. My humble opinion!!

[Road King]

I have only had my F200 Yamaha 4 stroke for a couple months but so far I am very happy with it. It starts like a dream, you can hardly tell its running at idle, and seems to get better mileage than my old 115 two stroke but I don't have to run it WOT to get the same speed. It is definitely heavier, definitely more expensive, and only slightly quieter at WOT. It only pushes my ProV 1900 between 45 and 50 so the performance may not be as good as an HDPI. I do not think it sounds like it is laboring at WOT any more than my two stokes did. I do know it cruises very nicely and hopefully will last as long or longer than any of the two strokes I have had. Time will tell. I don't think they are for everyone but do have some advantages. Go with what you can afford and you feel most comfortable with. I think the four strokes have a niche and are here to stay, especially if they can get the weight down. Dirt bikes are going through the same evolution.

[fishhunter]

Everyone bashing optis should relize how many more black motors there are on the back of boats than any other brand. They have had problems but alot of the problems have been the driver not the motor but mercury is still warrentying them.