Friend & Substance abuse advice

[steve(IL)]

I realize this is way off topic but am hoping to get some valuable "been there - done that" advice. Three of us travel from different states to meet in camp out west every summer. It has traditionally been a place to cut loose and whoop it up. My dilemma is that one of the guys has developed a problem w/ drinking and is actually enrolled in a program. He's telling us to mind our own business while in camp and he'll make his own decisions. I'm comfortable with that because I know this individual is very strong. However, I don't have any firsthand experience w/ people w/ drinking problems.

My question is this - should we try to keep this guy from drinking while he is in camp? It's not like he lost his house, wife, job and family or anything. He realized it was getting out of hand and sought help. Is there a gray area or is drinking an all or none type deal?

Sorry to bring this up here - but this site is one of the best places to get good info that I know. Thanks for all replies.

[jane]

the best thing for you to do for him is don't frink around him. it might seem stupid and unescesary but it would be the best thing for him. if he is a casual drinker try to support his decision by only having a few drinks. i hope this helps.

[Dutchman]

There are those that feel that one drink will lead to a thousand more, and with some individuals this may be true. I feel there are many that have drank more than they should at one point of time in their life, be it at college or just going through a faze/craze thing. If you friend truly wishes to remain substance free he will. The way it sounds he stopped on his own once, and sought help. Let him make his own decisions, as an alternative beverage buy a case of near beer. To me and for me only, the association of getting bent on a annual fishing trip is a wholesome letting your hair down with your best buddy's event. I would encourage you to not bother him about his choice, whatever it may be. These are my thoughts only, most of all enjoy the time you share together, none of us last forever.....

[Dave in Mpls]

How do you propose to try to keep your friend from drinking?? The ONLY practical way would be for nobody to drink. The expression "DO as I say, not as I do" comes to mind!

That said, everybody is different. Some people don't drink a drop. Some drink only at social occasions. Some drink only on the weekends, but drink way too much. Some think every day is a weekend. Some only drink when they are alone or with someone! My point is, everybody has their own perception as to what "just enough" and "way too much" is, so there certainly is some grey area. Most people who recognize they may have a problem with drinking sway to the opposite end of the spectrum, and enjoy total sobriety. Others are able to reduce their drinking to a point that is comfortable to them.

In short, this is a decision that your friend is gonna have to make. Nothing you or the others say is gonna make much difference, other than perhaps making the situation uncomfortable for everyone involved. Do your thing, and let him do his thing.

Regards

[GRUBB]

All of our outings and gatherings used to involve booze. Now
one of us can no-longer drink and you know what, At first it
was tough but now we don't miss the booze... enjoy each others
company - and be thankfull you can still get together. If the
guy really has a problem he will not drink in front of you to show how strong he is. Also, do not put any pressure on him by
drinking around him. Again, enjoy his company, the laughs and
good time will come without the booze -

[Hunter]

Our deer hunt group, hunts with a "recovered alcoholic". Everyone else in camp enjoys a couple drinks every evening. Just dont make it a blow out every night. He has just as good a time as everyone else, its just being with the guys thats important. Besides he cleans up on the poker table!

Now, if we could only get him out of bed in the morning!

[cisco]

Recovering alcoholics who stay sober are those who establish a new network of friends and life style following treatment. This does not mean bye-bye to life-long friends, it simply means a different pattern and less close ties to the old group. Support groups are absolutely essential for some, less necessary for others.

In the case you mention, why not simply agree that the trip will be booze-free, no booze for anyone. If the guys cannot take the trip without booze, more than one guy has a problem.

Good luck.

[SUPERTROLLER]

Steve, I don't see any problem arising. He said he'll handle his business and for you not to mention it to him. You drink what you are comfortable with and so will he. There are days when I don't drink hardly a drop and others when I don't feel like going to bed. I don't let others influence my drinking if I'm expected to drive that night. I think if you guys all just go about your own business and don't remind him not to drink that his own strong personality will enable him to show better judgement than he has in the past. He put himself in treatment, so he has taken the biggest step on his own first. That is most of the battle right there.
This will probably be slammed by someone but I'll say it anyway. I feel there are very few actual alcoholics. I mean, those people that just can't stop drinking once they start again. I think there are a lot of weak willed people that fall off the wagon and use alcoholism as an excuse for not being a responsible adult. They know the consequences and still choose to drink excessively. They could stop if they wanted,,, they just don't want to stop cuz they're having too much fun.

[SUPERTROLLER]

Steve, I don't see any problem arising. He said he'll handle his business and for you not to mention it to him. You drink what you are comfortable with and so will he. There are days when I don't drink hardly a drop and others when I don't feel like going to bed. I don't let others influence my drinking if I'm expected to drive that night. I think if you guys all just go about your own business and don't remind him not to drink that his own strong personality will enable him to show better judgement than he has in the past. He put himself in treatment, so he has taken the biggest step on his own first. That is most of the battle right there.
This will probably be slammed by someone but I'll say it anyway. I feel there are very few actual alcoholics. I mean, those people that just can't stop drinking once they start again. I think there are a lot of weak willed people that fall off the wagon and use alcoholism as an excuse for not being a responsible adult. They know the consequences and still choose to drink excessively. They could stop if they wanted,,, they just don't want to stop cuz they're having too much fun.

[Byron]

Being a recovering alcoholic with 20 years of sobriety, and an addictions counselor for 18, I feel I know a littel about the subject. So, here's my 2 cents worth.

Your friend will do what he want's to do. Not drinking is his responsibility - no one else's. There is no reason to hide alcohol from an alcoholic. Believe me, if I want to drink, I will, and no one can stop me. The same is true with your friend.

However, if his drinking creates a problem for other people (you or the others), then that is a different story, or if he asks the group to not include alcohol for the trip, then your group has some decisions to make.

My suggestion is to go on the trip and have a great time. If the question arises, deal with it at the time. Until then, don't worry about it and have fun.

[Caneye]

Some of the posts hit close to home. It seems that booze and fishing go hand in hand for a lot of people. Ice fishing this winter I started going booze free and a lot of the boys made comments about "born again". I had gotten tired of the drunks and behaviour that go with excessive drinking.
An old retired fellow made a comment to me one day that he had given up drinking 25 years ago. His revelation came after he stopping drinking was that he had no friends......only ex drinking partners. He had to make new friends.
Only the individual can decide when enough is enough.........

[cisco]

You are also much safer in cold weather if you do not drink alcohol.

Why is it so difficult to leave the stuff alone that accounts for half or more of all motor vehicle fatalities, boating fatalities, broken marriages, heart disease, liver disease, absenteeism, and on and on and on?

I repeat -- If the group can't go on a booze free trip, there is more than one guy with a drinking problem.

[SUPERTROLLER]

Why hould the rest of the group change their vacation routine? Just because they want to relax and quaff a cold one doesn't mean they have a drinking problem. They didn't say they were blasted and then roaring around the lake like a bunch of drunken idiots. He said one guy has come to realize he drank too much in the past.

[vetspet(ind)]

my father was an alcoholic and stopped drinking and had a meaningful relationship once more with all seven of us children... then a doctor he was seeing told him drinking was ok in moderation...when my father asked if it was ok...well, that was the beginning of the end when he took his first drink...i realize the doctor was not at fault but my dad did totally stop drinking for 5 or so yrs until he was given the green light and alcoholics don't seem to be able to stop...in the same way your drinking could tempt him to take just one more for the old times and could precipitate another fall...i'd just not drink...i gave up drinking in 1982 because i figured if it got my dad it could get me and have a great time at weddings and hunting/fishing trips...i'm sort of a hyper guy...practical joker....tough guy and don't miss the booze at all...a good time can be had w/o the alcohol...steve...i don't believe drunkeness is an illness... for me its a sin...drinking alcohol on the other hand is permitted as Christ made wine on his first miracle...it is drinking in excess which is wrong...the moral issue here is if you cause your brother to stumble....i would certainly not want to cause or entice a good friend to fall into a serious problem area he/she has....booze is just not that important a thing in a friendship....it might be likened to a bunch of guys going out on the town and one of them has had a major problem with adultery and patches his marriage together and you go to a place where you know there will be easy pick-ups...not what i would call appropriate for a good friend who has a weakness in that area...steve

[Backwater Eddy]

Try will power on diarrhea some time, see what results you have with that?

Alcoholism is a physical addiction as well as a mental compulsion, and not as simple as willpower.

Alcoholics are far from weak willed individuals. Do you know how much determination and drive it takes to keep messing up your life day to day and then cover your tracks, tons of it.

His friend needs a support structure of sober individuals to help him learn anew how to live sober and free.

Dealing with the prospect of others who drink in a social occasion is a thing that takes time to adjust too, he will find his comfert level and lean when leaving is the best option.

Try not to make him feel like a outsider and don't avoid anything, he will need to learn and deal with everything at his own pace. Just be a friend when he needs one.

Backwater Eddy

[steve(IL)]

Thank you for all the replies. Of the three guys going to camp, it is only the one guy with the problem who ever felt strongly that drinking should be a part of camp. The other guy and myself could take it or leave it. We had discussed the idea of a "dry" camp this year and it was the guy in the program who balked.
This is what created the dilemma in the first place. We'd both just about step in front of a bus if it would help this guy.
We'd gladly not drink if that would help.

One problem is that we spend some evenings in town... a lumber & mining town.... and have made friends of many locals over the years. The watering holes are full of characters and a treat to visit. It would be a hard part of the trip for this fellow to pass up.

For the record, I don't like drinking and fishing, camping, etc.
I don't care for people who drink too much and do things they will regret the next day. When I'm in the boat, it's all business! I'm not judging others by saying this - it's my choice on how to conduct myself. My drinking is limited to business functions, Friday Margaritas w/ my wife, weigh-ins and occassional clashes with OOC of this board!

[Bart]

>This will probably be slammed by
>someone but I'll say it
>anyway. I feel there are
>very few actual alcoholics. I
>mean, those people that just
>can't stop drinking once they
>start again. I think there
>are a lot of weak
>willed people that fall off
>the wagon and use alcoholism
>as an excuse for not
>being a responsible adult. They
>know the consequences and still
>choose to drink excessively. They
>could stop if they wanted,,,
>they just don't want to
>stop cuz they're having too
>much fun.


And you should be slammed! Stupidest thing I've seen posted for quite awhile.

[CJHughes]

I agree with supertroller,if they want to stop they can I don't believe all the bull. As far as ths #####$ something you ate or drank gave them to you, such as too much applecider.Do you wake up the next morning and drink more applecider or do you tell yourself , man that is pretty tough on me I don't think I'll do that again for awhile or maybe never.Drinking is just a way to leave reality for alot of people

[cisco]

That being the case, go ahead and make it a "dry" camp. And, keep the trips to town limited and brief.

Many of the above disclaimers to the contrary, alcoholism IS a disease. "Strong will" "good character" all that aside, check the definition of the word "addict."

Good luck on your trip. I hope it is a satisfactory experience for all involved.

[Dave in Mpls]

Uhhh...Steve...

We already have one Tough Guy amongst us! :)

Regards

[Jeremy]

Here are my 2 cents worth...

Leave it at home for this trip. in the end, its your buddys choice, but undue pressure in a new recovery is something I would not chose to put a friend throught

[S. IOWA HENK]

AS ONE WHO HAS "BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, AIN'T GONNA DO IT AGAIN IF I CAN HELP IT", I'D OFFER THIS ADVICE: IF YOUR FRIEND IS TRUELY SERIOUS ABOUT HIS SOBRIETY, THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO OR SAY TO MAKE HIM DRINK. ON THE OTHER HAND, IF HE ISN'T SERIOUS, THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE CAN DO TO KEEP HIM FROM IT. ALSO KEEP IN MIND THAT MANY RELAPSES ARE PLANNED. DON'T ALLOW YOURSELVES TO BE THE EXCUSE FOR HIS ACTIONS. MY OPINION, FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, DECIDE NOW TO DRINK OR BE DRY, BEFORE THE TRAVEL AND EXPENSE. SAVE HARD FEELINGS THAT COULD RUIN THE TRIP FOR THE MAJORITY.

HENK

[Mark]

I have been a substance abuse councellor for 18 years. Have been pro angling for eight. A lot of guys coming through our residential program breath a little easier when they see the PWT plaques on the wall, then I break the news to them. No deer camp in early recovery. The chemicals in the brain have not come close to stabilizing. There are chemicals called acetalhyde present in higher levels in chemically dependent folks that cause a greater compulsion to use. It has nothing to do with will power. I often tell clients they will now find out who their true friends really are. I have witnessed hundreds of people die from alcoholism, and even when things are most unmanagable they somehow find a reason to use. Good question though, you are a great friend for even asking but listen to what the majority of respondents are saying...Alcohol is the biggest problem our society faces today...4 out of 5 kids having trouble at school- there is alcohol abuse at home. Your friend could go through fishing camp fine, problem is he takes those memories home and they eat away...I often tell guys not to stop going to camp, but to create a new tradition that is healthy...Good luck.

[Been There]

I have been in recovery since 10/2/88. Alcoholism is not a matter of will power. When alcoholics drink, their bodies undergo changes we describe as allergic reactions for lack of a better analogy. Drink one, and we crave more. Hence, the goal is to avoid the first drink. Yet, we can't do that alone. That's why I attend AA every day.

People rarely find themselves in treatment centers by mistake. Casual drinkers only drop by during visiting hours.

I agree with the other people in recovery who have posted that if someone wants to stay sober, nothing you do will get them to drink. If they want to drink, nothing you do will get them to stay sober. That said, I commend you for being sensitive enough to your friend's needs to ask what to do. It helps in early sobriety to avoid alcohol and places where it's served. But a time will come eventually when a recovering alcoholic will reach a point of neutrality on the subject of alcohol. But it takes time.

I was unsure if I understood one point _ if your friend told you he could drink casually then 1) he is not alcoholic or 2) he is kidding himself. Either way it's all his decision.

Contrary to what someone posted, fishing and alcohol are not natural mixes. I have not fished with alcohol on the boat three times in 121/2 years, and I fish more than 100 to 120 times a year. The people I fish with go to fish, not drink. Many are in recovery. Others don't drink for personal or religious reasons. But, there are many of us. Besides, being drinking on the water is a bad idea. Many things can go wrong and you need your wits about you.

Ignore the person who criticized your post. This is a fishing web site. Therefore, we care about what effects fishermen.

I will pray for your friend.

[WAeyes]

My advice is to make it a dry camp this year. Those "friends" in town at the watering holes sound like trouble. If they really are "friends" then they won't mind meeting for dinner rather than a few beers. If you don't want your name associated with him falling off the wagon then do everything you can to help him. DO NOT put him in a tempting situation.

[ken-e-catchem]

My nickel...... After traveling with my group for 10 to 15 years to diffrent lakes and areas, I decided i have a problem. I sought help in a recovery program. That was in sept. 87. My first year clean and sober, I told the guys to go without me because i didnt want..(1) to jeopordize my recovery, (2) to be the oddball on the trip. I made personal sacrifices to keep my recovery intact. I refused to subject myself to the temptation involved in the trip. The guys said if i didnt go, they weren't going either. Everyone stayed home. As i said before, i wasn't going to test myself. Now, for the last 14 years, I've been going to kentucky lake with friends that dont drink. I've been having great times. Yes i've found new friends, but i still associate with the old buddies too. When they fish from my boat, no alcohol allowed. when i'm in their boat, it's their call. True friends dont bring booze with them when i'm in their boat. those other guys i dont fish with anymore. bottomline is.... it's all my call. You guys cant make the call for your buddy. If he respects his recovery, he'll make the necessary decisions. I'll be hoping and praying for the best for you guys.Almost 14 years clean and still counting. Smitty

[ken-e-catchem]

I'm not the smitty from the 10 foot wave post. former user name is chaunc, from western pa.

[ken-e-catchem]

I'm not the smitty from the 10 foot wave post. former user name is chaunc, from western pa.

[Melonbob]

Alot of good stuff has been said in the previous posts, and some of it....well, everyone has their opinion. Recovery is a life long process. Your friend will have to get used to being around alcohol eventually. That said, early recovery is nasty, and for the first year of my sobriety, I was completely terrified to go anywhere where there would be alcohol. I'm not sure how long your buddy has been sober, but if he feels comfortable, there is no reason why you shouldn't bring some beers with you. Mind you, that doesn't mean you should be drinking yourselves stupid every night of the trip. An alcoholic in early recovery sees no fun in hanging out with a bunch of drunks, after awhile it becomes quite comical(IMHO), but not right away....(;. My suggestion? Have a few, stay reasonably sober, and keep it at the camp!! There is no place for alcohol in the boat at any time....(:

Take is Easy...

Bob

[Beaver]

Hi, my name is Beaver, and I am an alchoholic. I`ve been sober 10 years. Take it from me, dealing with people in the stage if recovery is different for everybody. Some people need to go to a meeting every day just to make it. It all depends on the person. Part of the teachings of AA is to find a new circle of sober friends so that the temptation to drink isn`t there anymore. I've got alot of the same friends that I used to have. They were the ones that stood by me and showed me support. Others thought I was full of it ....... "Because you don`t drink anymore than the rest of us". Wish I had a new rod for every time I heard that line.
I don`t know how far your friend is along in the recovery process, but please, show him your support if you care about him. Like I said, everybody`s different. I never minded people drinking around me, because I saw how much better my life could be without drinking. It never bothered me but it drives some people crazy. They can`t handle the temptation and the worse thing they need is to think that they "can have just one" because you can`t.
I have a couple suggestions. Sit down and talk to him about the situation. Get his perspective. Secondly, e-mail me. We can get together on the phone because this can be rather touchy and wordy but I`d be more than willing to help out. Beaver

[Matt]

you da man Bev!!! congrats and good luck!!