Stupid Mille Lacs question

[ebox]

I certainly don't mean to start a fight or anything, but a local TV show had a special on Mille Lacs the other night where they invited a couple biologists a couple reosrt owners and a outdoors writer. They debated the issue of the new slot on Mille Lacs. The biologists stated that the fishery needs to be slowed down a bit. The business owners stated that the 16"-18" fish just aren't in the lake, so essentially the DNR has shut down the lake. A lot of fishing reports I've read talk about fish just over and just under the slot being released. Would it be possible for the DNR to still have a quite narrow slot, but change it from 16-18 to 15-17? I know this is probably a dumb question, but I'm no biologist. I was up there a couple weeks ago and had a blast, we released all our fish, but we decided that we weren't keeping any before we even went there, regardless of size. It just seems to me that such a great fishery could still be managed properly without causing such hostility. Sorry to bring up a dead horse that has already been beaten to death here, but I was just curious to see what others think.
Thanks and have a safe 4th - erik

[whitetips]

The reason the show aired is because the 16-18 population is declining. That slot population isnt what it uses to be. Now I was up there last week and most we caught in only one spot we fished they were 19-23 inches all 27 of them and 12 the sat before. True these are catch and release, they have shoulders and are fun to catch. But until they are 30 " No one can keep any until they change the current slot. But the tribe will be able to spear and net the same fish you might be releasing tomorrow. The fishing is outstanding at MilleLacs and to see a parking lot empty during the week in the summer is unbelievable, launches are sitting at the dock . Maybe more people are fishing on weekends , But the retired, school employees, and people that get time off in the summer are staying away. Its tough for some to catch that many fish but to not have any fall in the slot on the ones they caught and have no fruits from there efforts. Until they change the slot or add another length slot, say 20-22 and leave the 16-20 to reproduce and grow, people will target the perch and do catch and release on walleye like fishing Canada. If this hapepens the adult population of walleye will have a forage problem in the future, I see it coming. Its not Lake Erie , and Eries hurting on perch now, so is Lake Michigan.

[Mille Lacs Guy]

I think instead of putting presure on the DNR etc, about changing the slot limits we should concentrate on petitioning whomever it takes to get the netting and spearing abolished. If it weren't for the spearing and netting we wouldn't have this situation. We have to get to the root of the problem. I noticed there was a petition to our idiot governor Jesse Ventura at Lundeens asking him to step in on this situation. Things like that will make a difference in the long run. And here's a question: What does it take to get the entire 1837 treaty abolished?

Mille Lacs Guy

[Tuffy18]

I'm certainly no biologist by any means, but what is the lake going to be like in 5-10 years. It just makes sense that if you take all the young fish (16"-18"), whats going to be left after all the 22"and bigger fish die or are taken by the tribe. It seems to me that in a few years this fishery is going to crash hard. I hope I'm wrong because I sure love catching those fish right now. Just hope I can in years to come.

[tuffy18]

I couldn't agree with you more. I wish more people would voice the truth. Thanks for having the kahoonas.

[Beckman]

I don't think there will be any adjustment to the slot at this point no matter what. I believe fishing is great this year because of a low forage base and not because of a huge population of walleyes. The forage base will return and the fishing will be good in the future ONLY because of the tight slot that needed to be imposed this year, the lake may have been cleaned out without it. People are still going there too, went up Sunday evening, had to wait in line at the gas station. There were only a few parking spots open at the landing. Lots of people are enjoying the fishing. Don't let the complainers fool you.

[mikie]

Oh, come on now. The netting and spearing is limited to a finite number of pounds per year (and folks, those guys were here first). It is the white man's greed that has depleated the resource. Look at the photo posted on another (anglers fishing network) board, walleye on a board that are perch-size.
We had a blast last week up there, kept enough slot fish to feed five and merrily released the rest (they wouldn't stand 2 days drive in a cooler anyway). What a wonderful resource Minnesota has, lets hope my 14 year old boy can take his kid there and do as good in 20 years. m

[Tideye]

Low farage base, few small walleyes and a large population of 18 inch plus fish is not good for the lake. Yes it is great for fishing now but big walleyes eat much more forage than small ones and the forage will continue to decline. With less perch and other forage in the lake for them to eat they will start eating more walleyes which means less small walleyes and poorer recruitment of fry. Then the big ones start to die or are taken by netting and it seems to me the lake will crash.
It's not that I want to take more fish it's just that fish need to be removed from the lake in a more balanced manner so as to protect a well rounded fishery.
We need people to write your congressmem(state and federal), the governor, and the president expressing the negative impact of the treaty.

Go catch some hogs while they last.
Jim

[jimbo2]

Mikie
I respect your opinion, but.....
Do you live in Northern Minnesota? My guess is you don't.
People up here in general have a different view on the spearing issue than people from other areas unaffected by it. So preaching is not a good idea. Spearing hurts, just ask the folks from Wisc. With bag limits lowered to 1/3 of what they used to be, don't tell resort owners "its not the issue".
If you want this resource to be here in 20 years, and you want this "finite" amount of spearing each year, then I would guess you want your cake and be able to eat it too.
I agree there are certain rights that were gauranteed under the treatys, but common sense and conservation should rule over a 150 year old agreement.
I'm glad you had a nice visit to our backyard, maybe we can come to yours sometime, and we will tell you how nice it is, or maybe not.

[whitetips]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-03-01 AT 12:57PM (CST)[p]To me its healthy when all year classes are showing up. 10 yrs ago I fished with a couple guys and we caught alot of cigars and kept some 18s for table fare. Hardly saw any real small fish in my last 3 trips. To me if you check the lateral line on the skins theres alot of red and the skin is fatier than they used to be 10 yrs ago.I see mostly larger fish out there and its a wasted resource left to the tribe to do as they please. The petition is in process, if you get a chance sign it at a bait shop in the area.

[Tideye]

Whitetips
I already signed it.
Why dont they put that petition on-line. I think they would get a much better turn out.

Jim

[whitetips]

I asked the fellow that proposed it to us to do so, I'll ask some of the fellows tomorrow whats going on. Would need a PDF on something like that, but an attachment to me would work .

[Box]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I usually am), but isn't a petition just the type thing that really made the whole darn mess blow up in the sport anglers face in the first place, about ten years ago or so? Because of PERM and the boys (while meaning well, of course) isn't the whole treaty issue now legally out of our hands, other than appealling to the Tribe itself? The early "fighters" forced it into court (several courts) knowing well that a bad decision would bend everybody over... welcome to deliverance boys and girls, that was a bad bet...

I'm not trying to point fingers, but being a white guy and looking at it from ALL points, why would the Tribe want to do us any favors? I'm just sick of fingers being always pointed at the Tribe (and yes I know all about WI and Red Lake, and that is my point - work with each other and not tick each other off.) Of course, it is in everybody's interest that the lake remain healthy, and I think there will be some common sense on all sides - eventually. Just hope it is soon...

(Of course there is the argument about why Tribes could fight and conquer each other all over the country and that is now called heritage, but the "early white-man tribe" is not thought of in the same way... but I will stay away from that... I would then be labeled bad...)

Just another opinion along with the thousand others... And as with most opinions, I am most likely wrong... :) Oh yeah, and I am a biologist, but working with computers currently, and no I don't live in Northern MN, but I spend a lot of money there. heh.

Good fishing,
Box

[Tideye]

The President of the us is the only one who can alter or set aside the treaty. I'm not sure of the wording but in the original treaty it allows for the president to overrule the treaty or parts of it. This is why a petition could work in addition to some letters to congressmen and the president especially with a new administration. Of course it wouldn't hurt to have a boat load of money for influence. Too bad we cant open casinos. I wonder if all of the companies we all spend millions of dollars for tackle etc. would respond with that boatload if we all took the time to write them.

Jim

[ex lacs]

what it all boils down to is different rights for different people.Most of us were taught that to treat people this way is unfair and racist. And NO, they WERE'NT here first. When father hennepin reached the shores of mille lacs in the late 1600's there were NO Ojibway in the mille lacs area. The area was populated by the Lakota tribe (Sioux), who were violently driven out by the Ojibway just a few decades before the Ojibway signed the treaties with the us government. Hmm......., perhaps the sioux are the ones with the real case here.

[whitetips]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-03-01 AT 10:09PM (CST)[p]The Millelacs band is not the issue of the petition. The petition is proposing to the DNR by way of a petition to the Gov. Ventura (they hope) to open a more favorable slot for fishing. The locals in that area feel it is to tight and totally causing a lack of tourism. The lake for years prior to the last 10 had great fishing and no slots or restrictions other than 1 over 24. The band is going to be able to do what they want for years to come. I really dont care what there doing.
Its there legal right, but our restrictions to fish and take fish from Millelacs should not be affected by what the band is doing. There is to much protection on walleye population up there. It could use a little loosening up.

[Rob Johnson]

Come on Whitetips! The deal is that the Indians should not have any more rights then we have. If they want to fish for food no one will stop them from fishing just like you and I do. Why should they be able to net fish and spear and we can't. THAT’S THE ISSUE!!! We are being discriminated against because we happened to be born White.

[hmmmmmm]

Box, you have a very good point, one that I have thought about since this whole mess started. The ojibwe were conquerers not unlike the whiteman. Mille Lacs is the "Sacred Area" of the LAKOTA not the ojibwe, unless you can declare an area sacred after only being there for less than 100 years. They did the same thing to the Lakota as the white man did to them. Did anyone argue this point in court?
I'm getting so sick of hearing about certain groups wanting money or privillages because of things that happened in the past. Yes, the Holocaust survivors and Japenese Internment camp victims deserve as much restitution as they can get and more, but when you start talking about paying back people who were not even alive when these things took place, then your out of line in my book. Heck, my ancestors were English and back in 200 AD they were being conqured by the Romans....maybe I should sue Italy for damages, or the fact that the Vikings raided my ancestors villages and even raped my greatX25 or whatever grandmoter....maybe I should file a complaint against Norway!
Where does it all end?
Like Rodney King said- "Can't we all just get along?"

[Box]

I think that was aimed at me, not whitetips :)

A treaty is an agreement, like your deed for your house is an agreement. Do you want to share your yard with everybody in the state, even though you paid for the purchase of it?

My understanding of the treaty is that the Indians gave land in return for "whatever" AND the rights to fish and hunt those lands. (In my mind it doesn't matter if they were tricked or not - heck I get tricked into paying more on every truck I buy...) Then a president took those rights back - went against the agreement. Then the courts found that that was "wrong", and that the whites and Indians must go by the "old" or original agreement. (Just because my great grandpa bought a house before any of us was alive, and kept it in the family, I would hate to think that you could come and take the lamps out of it, just because you weren't around when your great grandpa sold them to mine, and now they are worth a lot.)

...anyway... my point is that sport anglers will be there always, and the tribe will be there always, why can't we work together to make sure Mille Lacs is as healthy as it can be. As previous posts mentioned, a slot limit may be the solution, but not the one that is being used now as the current one simply keeps the political pounds of fish good, and not the overall health of the year classes of walleyes.

Good fishing, and Happy Fourth!
Box

[jimbo]

I think there is a simple solution to the problem. Treat EVERYONE EQUAL. If one group can use a certain method to fish let everyone use that same method. This is called equality. I get really upset when some refers to a certain group as Native Americans. I was born here just as they were. Are they spearing these fish only for there own use?? NO. My 2 cents worth

[ed]

stop the spearing, treat evryone equal

[800proX]

as president Bush said "Soveriegn Nation? What Sovereign Nation. Are they not citizens of the state of Texas?" He said this in reference to the tribal squabbles in his home state. Sounds pretty good to me. If they want from the state, they have to live by the state IMHO.

Obviously my opinion is rather slanted because I take Mille Lacs very seriously, as do most in here. Steve Fellegy in Outdoor News has done some remarkable stories these last few issues, and has kept my temperment at a low roar - so far.

jeff

[GullGuide]

Nice loophole regarding "At the pleasure of the President", but I see one problem here. No matter what GW thinks or feels about this issue, his advisors will never let him overturn the treaty in this day and age of political corectness. Can you imagine the backlash from people who do not live here and have no idea of the situation?
The only chance of ever having a president overturn the treaty is if he was on his way out and then only in the last few days of office......sound familiar Bill?
>"////=<

[james_walleye]

I think its a shame that people are staying away from this lake because ya might have a hard time catching a few "eaters". Stop and think about it. Doesnt it sound a bit stupid. You can sit out there all day long and catch 20"+ fish left and right and people are complaining about it?? The fish are too big?? And these people that say that they arent going to bring their families up because their kids wont have any fun if they cant keep anything? Yeah i bet those kids would be absolutely bored catching 3 lb walleyes all day long and i bet they would hate having all those pictures of those big walleyes to show off to grandpa and their friends. I just dont understand it all. Most people are complaining about their lakes not holding any walleyes over 13" and here we are complaining about too many 20" and bigger walleyes. And another thing...everything ya hear tells us that we should voluntarily be releasing all walleyes over 17" on all lakes because in general they are all females. This is especially the case on Mille Lacs from what i hear because the walleyes have a slow growth rate. So these fish should be going back into the lake voluntarily anyways to keep the fishery at a world class level. I read something in the outdoor news...and im sorry i cant remember the exact figures. But it said last year the angler harvest was 310,000 (approximately). Without the slot it would have been over 660,000. Now you figure out the math over years what the damage would be without a slot. I guess my point is that i dont want to get to the year 2015 and be saying "god i remember the good old days 15 years ago when ya couldnt keep 20"ers off your hook. Now ya cant find any of those fish".

[Butch]

Well, this is my first time commenting on this subject.
I believe the Slot on Mille Lacs does need to be addressed.
But leave the #'s of fish in place for the Native Americans.
They net/spear during the spawn ergo take out mostly a mix of smaller male but some ##### nice females!
We do need to spread out the slot though for fishing.
Why just go after one slot/year class fish?
If you are catching fish and want to balance it out.
Take a representation of the fish sizes caught and set the limit accordingly.

I.e. Any combination of the following
2 (14"-16")
2 (16"-18")
2 (18"-20")
2 (20"-24")
1 over 24"

Now, this is off the top of my head but the Fish and Game does this in MN. on Duck Limits...

This could be adjusted to year class's etc.

It would definitely make the trip out more exiting????

My $.02

B2

See ya on the water!