Reef Runner - Foul Hooked Walleyes

[IaTag]

I started using Deep Reef Runners a couple of years ago with fairly good success. I have noticed that a high percentage of the fish I catch (probably about 1/3) are hooked outside of the mouth, usually on top of the head. Does anyone else experience this while using Deep Reef Runners?

I usually troll around 2.5 m.p.h. which is as slow as the boat I fish out of will go. I like to use Whiplash line (20# test / 4# diameter) and set my drag real light.

The first Reef Runner I bought ran true out of the box and I used it for almost a whole week in Canada with few problems. Since then I have had to tune almost any other one I've used, and it is sometimes nearly impossible to make them run true. Would another line make a difference in how the lure is running?

Thanks for your input.

IaTag

[ETT]

Both situations are related to the fact that the Reef Runners have a built in horizontal hunting action. They do not simply track straight and true even when perfectly tuned. They'll kick out and dart left and/or right when trolled in any kind of wave action or at higher speeds or on finer lines. The side of the face or top of the head hook ups are also in part because of the super sharp hooks that they come with. A walleye sneaks up behind the lure, and decides to pump it with his head to cripple it and his stuck with those sticky sharp hooks. You might try a larger split ring on the line tie or larger hooks to settle the lure down a little, but the wild and crazy action is very attractive to the walleyes. Hope this helps. Good luck.

[Waterfowler]

If you can ever figure out how to tune the reefs on a consistent basis, I would patent it. That plug frustrates more fisherman than any other on the market, including myself. I gave all mine away. I figured all the time I spent messing around tuning, I could have been fishing a different lure and catching fish. Just my opinion though.

[Juls_WI]

If you ever see me on the water and I raise my hands in the "victory" motion (arms above the head, like the marathon runners), it's because I have just tuned my Reef Runner properly..heheh I can usually get them tuned in two or three tries. I guess this is where being a woman shines... have you ever heard that saying about women having more patience than men? (wink) ;-)

Gee, I wish I had known you were giving them away. I would have gladly taken them off your hands for you! I luv'em!

Juls

[ETT]

I've done this before, but I can't find it so, I'll go through it again....

Reef Runners are hard to tune and often need retuned after a big fish thrashes in the net. They have a built in horizontal hunt that precludes them from ever running perfectly straight and true (like Bomber 25As will). After you get them close, let out about 10' of line and let the lure track behind the boat (or to the side) in water with no turbulance. Now pull the lure forward... surge it as a wave or a turn would or even faster, and watch the lure. With Reef Runners you need to do this several times. You've got it just right when it pulls straight down most of the time, but will kick out left and right about equally.

Bringing the lure in empty is another way to check the tune. If it comes straight in, of course, that's good. If it wants to pull on way or the other, it needs tweeked.

The Lure-Tune-R does make it easier to put that last subtle little touch on the line tie. It is sometimes hard to know if you've moved it or not with pliers.

Hope this helps. They are well worth the extra effort needed to tune. And yes I am sponsored by Reef Runner, and Scott is a good friend and a nice guy, but they have earned their #1 standing on my boat by simply outfishing every other crank I own.

Good luck and good fishing.

[Dr. Mike]

One of the things that you need to do is probably slow down. I find that my Reef Runners "peel out" after 1.5 mph. that is that they tend to run out to the side and shallow up if you are going too fast. i have found that Reef Runners run best under 1.5 mph if you can get there.

Dr Mike

[Stizo]

Good post Juls! ( :

ETT, as usual you are right on.

I just returned from Lake McConaughy, western Nebraska, where I had probably one of my best fish outings ever. Scott has been drilling me on the importance of moving up high, especially during these summer months, so I went to McConaughy to "practice." For one, Lake McConaughy is not a traditional "plug" bite. However this year people have been doing well trolling plugs. I fished for four (4) days and my smallest fish was 22". I had four fish over 30" with my biggest being 32 3/4"! All of these fish came on Ripsticks, Little Rippers, and Deep Little Rippers. All of my 30" + fish came on Ripsticks, with the big one coming on "Blue Hawaiian" 90' back on 10 lb Trilene XT. The 32 3/4" fish was my personal best. My previous personal best was a 32 1/2" fish I caught in a NAWA Pro-Am in 1999 on a "Cheap Sunglasses" Reef Runner on Lake Erie. That fish was "Big Fish of the Year" for the NAWA Pro-Am Circuit.

I gave away many Reef Runners to fisherman from Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico who had never seen them. One particular gentleman, from Fort Collins, CO, used a "Cheap Sunglasses" Ripstick to catch the biggest walleye of his life, a beautful 31 1/2" eye. His wife caught a 30 1/2" on the same lure and they ended up with two others over 30"! They both hugged my wife and I. Another lady from Pocatello, ID used a "Silver Bullet" Deep Little Ripper I gave her to catch a 30 3/4", which was her big fish. A really nice gentleman named Jimmie from Fort Collins, CO ended up taking six (6) fish over 30" last Wednesday to get mounted. Because of Reef Runners we had our own little community of fish slayers, that all became friends. The bottomline, Reef Runners are a very special lure that catch fish. They are not for every fisherman. If you don't have the patience or interest to pay attention to details, then there are other lures. If you want to catch big fish and consistently catch big fish then Reef Runners are a great lure for you.

Reef Runners are very specially designed, down to the hooks, hand painted, and made in the USA for a reason. Quality! One would be amazed how often the Reef Runner determines the outcome of many professional tournaments. Scott is not just a lure manufacturer either. The guy is amazing with his knowledge of the walleye. I have learned more from Scott than any other fisherman that has influenced me, and there are some great ones on that list. Many tournament anglers call Scott just to get his insight. The amazing thing is that more than likely Scott has never been to the body of water in question. But the guy is dead on. His knowledge, attention to detail, and strong / strict demand for precision goes into every Reef Runner.

By the way, if anyone wants more info on my trip to Lake McConaughy, e-mail me at teamstizo@home.com. Depending on the sun, my hot colors were "Blue Hawaiian", "Silver Bullet", "Cheap Sunglasses", and "Copperhead."

Chris

[ETT]

Dr. Mike,
You are right they are more steady at slower speeds, but they shine at speeds up to 2.7mph. If you want to run them faster than that you have to start doing things to settle them down.

[ETT]

Chris,
Do you suppose maybe some of those folks are lookin for a few more Reef Runners??? I bet so!! Thanks, and good job. You must be kinda like me... unable to keep a good thing to yourself. LOL Oh well, there's enough fish to go around.

[bigfish1965]

I agree with ETT about the foul hooks. Certain times of the year seem to be worse than others. When the alewives are in thick the walleye will be less aggressive since they are full up on the critters. Once the alewive population dissipates after the spawn the walleye are far more aggressive, since there is less food available. I found my foul hooks probably ended about 2 weeks ago. During early June half the fish were hooked in the noggin. One 10 lb. fish got it just under the lip, making it feel MUCH heavier. I have great success with the Orange Rebel Fastrac, which to this point I've never had to tune. I rip them into rocks and zebra mussels quite a bit and they still run great at any speed!

[FJH1]

I remember a time when we were trolling the mud on Winnebago with Rattling Rogues. The fish would hit the lure so violently that it wasn't uncommon to bring in a fish hooked on the side of the body - no hooks in the mouth. Most of the fish we caught and released that day were not hooked in the mouth. Maybe the Reef Runners are just being attacked by the 'eyes and as ETT said, they are getting hooked in other locations.

Best Regards,

FJH

[Stizo]

Jim

I had more fun helping others than catching all the big ones myself. I could have made a killing guiding and selling lures last week!!! But, the joy on the face of those people was worth every bit. While I was out fishing, with Brooke and Christian, Julie gave away almost every Reef Runner I had. I think many fisherman thought she would be more inclined to give the secret than me. She knew the program and was showing off the polaroids. (:

By the way, I am conviced on the "up-high" theory! I have now smoked 'em, and I mean big fish, "up-high" in Kansas, Kirwin, and Nebraska in the last month. I also ran some "stuff" you taught me. Very Good! Brooke, who just turned 6 last week, reeled in a 12# + Wiper thanks to you!! That was worth the admission.

I think I need to come back out for a "boot camp!"

Good Luck in New York!!!! I will thinking about you.

Chris

[RANGER]

It's been well over a year, maybe two, that I was having "trouble" tuning my Reef Runners until ETT stepped to the plate and straightened me out! In his directions, here and then, he gives you the secret - they have a unique side darting/hunting feature that, originally, I thought to be out of tune. NOT SO!! The way I found this out (with ETT's info) was to run the Reef Runners next to the boat, five feet or so down and watch every movement of it to determine what is "Normal" for this lure. It took me some time to get aquainted with this darting action but now I know, almost immediately, when it is running "true" for a Reef Runner and I have ETT to thank! They're not easy but then my Lowerance GPS, my Bottomline, my Apelco, ....etc. had to be learned, too! I won't be without Reef Runners, period!


RANGER


"KEEP YOUR LINES WET, YOUR POWDER DRY and THE BEER COLD"!

[Stizo]

Great post Ranger. I would like to add to your statement. The "hunting" action you described is the very characteristic that makes the Reef Runner absolutely deadly when you vary speeds. If my ideal trolling speed is 2.4, like it was at Mc Conahaughy, I will speed up to say 2.8-3.0 and then down to 2.0. I found my strikes coming during this. I believe that varing the speed of a Reef Runner extentuates that "hunting" action.

This is my own experience and theory. I would ask the professors, Jim and Scott, their thoughts on this.

[RANGER]

AGREED!

To take it another step further - turning! The undulating affects of the slow/fast trolling is also emphasized when running Reef Runners and turning the boat, often. Not necessarily around BUT side to side in zig-zag fashion will accomplish the same thing. This is a good way to work a line or bench for an extended time or distance especially in the Great Lakes and the larger lakes in the "shield"! :7


RANGER


"KEEP YOUR LINES WET, YOUR POWDER DRY and THE BEER COLD"!

[IaCraig]

Reef runners have been effective for us at times but from personal experience I have learned that at times reef runners are real character builders resulting in quite colorful language. Below I offer 3 tips for the board in hopes others bypass some of my mistakes.

1) Tangled lines - If you want to troll 3 (or more) lines out of the boat you either have to use planer boards or else you risk seriously tangled lines from the wide left and right action of reef runners (even if only 1 guy is using them). The 1st time someone used them in my boat they outfished everything else 3 to 1, but the guy with the middle rod got so frustrated after several tangles that he quit fishing for the day. We learned too that yellow bird planer boards pull too hard for reef runners (unless you use different clips and have calm water) so I recommend heavier duty boards like Off-Shore.

2) Hard to tune - Reef runners are hard to tune, and impossible if they leak. One time my dad had one that he couldn't get to stay down and eventualy he figured out it was filling with water. (brand new reef runner straight out of the box leaked water :-( )

3) Know the depth of your fish and your crank baits - Reef runners are great but they can run around 27+' deep so make sure your fish are 30' or deeper or you'll be waisting time.

The above tips are good guidelines when trolling any crank baits, but reef runners make them almost manditory.

IaCraig

[Chad]

Just a tip if you are getting tangled.

My partner and I use different color lines. I use "Flame" Freline and he uses "Smoke". That way if we tangle I know to cut the smoke line first!

[Mike(Co)]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-01 AT 05:35PM (CST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-01 AT 05:27*PM (CST)

Sitso

You might want to let Jimmie know that only one fish over 25" and three under 25" may be taken at Big Mac and if there wasn't such a limit' keeping six fish over 30" is assinine. You sound like the typical "nite bite on the dam fisherman" believe me it doesn't take a special lure or much skill to catch big fish when they come in at night. This is a perfect example of why the dam should be off limits at nite. It's a shame that people exploit, for slaughter, a very graceful fish for capital gain. Don't get me wrong. I am an avid Walleye fisherman and not a tree hugger. I have caught and released many Walleye this year at Big Mac and it bothers me to have YOU exploit them for capital gain! If you are that good of a fisherman start passing out some conservation tips like "catch and release" with your lures.

[ETT]

Chris,
A couple things about varying speed. First of all I find way too many guys think they've speed up or slowed down enough to make a difference when, because of the stretch in the line, ther has been little or no difference at the lure. Said an other way you must maintain that faster or slower speed long enough for the effect to get back to the lure. With mono and 150' leads that means about 20 seconds. Watch the set in the rod to give you an indication.

Second, in cool or cold water try stopping completely. I've had many big walleyes grab a lure and run off with it, hooking themselves in the process, with the boat at a dead stop while fighting another fish. I know your thinking "down wind troll... the guys boat is still going 1/2 mph with the wind"... NO WAY!! I'm talking the rods are straight up with lines hanging limp, and a rod goes down. Dumb-founded us the first time it happened repeatedly. They've got to be hitting the profile only.

Does it kinda sound like I believe varying speed is important?? You bet I do. Not always, but when it matters; IT MATTERS!!

[SUPERTROLLER]

I agree with your 2.7 speed limit. I usually tell people to make sure they stay less than 3 mph. It is very seldom I can run faster than that. If I feel the need for speed -- I change lures. Just part of the routine. Lots of other lures I can't run fast either.

[T-Mac]

LOL

My kinda guy....heheheh

[Stizo]

Mike (CO)

I think I must have caused a misinterpretation. Our friend took in six fish caught by six different anglers. Everyone of those anglers released similar fish. I had to keep my big fish as she went "belly-up" on me. Nevertheless, that is our perogitive that we have a right to.

I agree on the night fishing at the dam. It seems that that has gotten out of hand. I also think the dam should be closed during the spawn. As for your claim of "exploiting the walleye for capital gain", your on the wrong site. I did not charge for information and I gave lures away. That doesn't matter either as we were all there to fish, and believe it or not, to catch BIG fish and fish to eat. Your statement could be directed towards every business in Ogallala or on the lake. It is an argument that has holes shining through it and one that encompasses all of us on this site.

I think it is great that those people kept their "fish of a life time." I strongly encouraged a replica mount to each of them, as I have one, but that was their decision. Hunters don't have the luxury of choosing to let their "kill" of a life time go as we do and many of them have a mount made. That is the way it is.

Those who fish with me know, I release just about every fish I catch. But sometimes I keep some for the great taste of walleye beautifully prepared by my wife Julie. I love the taste of walleye too!

Before you, a Colorado angler, makes claims of me "exploiting" Lake McConahaughy walleye, I suggest you look around the great city of Ogallala and the Mighty Big Mac at what the "exploitation" of the walleye has done for that great town and the people who live there. The chance that one may catch a "Big Eye" has had that community buzzing this year with record business. Tourism is up, the local paper claimed. As for your fellow Colorado walleye anglers, we love you here in Nebraska. You spend more money on the Big Mac walleye than any other group. Call us capitalist! But don't for a second question our true love for our greatest resource in the Big Mac, the walleye!

Chris
teamstizo@home.com

[Stizo]

Jim

Great point, well said! Couldn't have said it better.

Why don't you someday, give these good people the insight to "super-line" trolling techniques!! That would be worth admission and would probably be the subjest that lands you your "Pulitzer!"

This is why I call you the "professor," with the utmost respect.

Chris

[Pops]

Good job Chris. As you know I am from Port Clinton for goodness sakes. Because we "exploited" the walleye we got on David Letterman!

Pops

[ETT]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-25-01 AT 03:35AM (CST)[p]chris,
I've discussed it here several times. The boatohio site may be a better place for that. Kinda long, and I hate to get lengthy here. If you have a specific (heck or general) question, go to boatohio, click on boating forums, then on ask the expert.
See you there. Better yet I hope to see you on the water again soon.

[Just Curious]

In most states, foul-hooking a fish is considered illegal and any foul-hooked fish must be released. Let's say you were in a big money tournament and trolling Reef Runners. You catch a nice walleye, but it is hooked on the side of its head. Do you keep it?

My own observation from fishing the PWT as an amateur is that the fish would be kept. I saw fish caught with the jig stuck under the head - fish kept. Crank buried in the gill plate - fish kept.

What have you guys observed or what do you do?

[Juls_WI]

From a previous discussion on this topic the concensus was that if the hooks were anywhere in front of the gill plate it was considered that the fish was going after the bait and thus kept. If the hooks were anywhere behind the gill plate it was considered truely foul hooked and released.

How many times have you seen the front hooks of a crankbait in the mouth and the other set stuck in the gill plate. Would it be fair to say that in the following scenerio, that if the front hooks that were in the mouth, just came out, and the ones in the gill plate stuck, that it would NOT be considered foul hooked? Do you think that fish was just sitting by and got whacked by a bait in the side of the face? Doubtful.

Like in the previous post by ETT explaining that a walleye will often "bump" a bait to wound it, the fish can be considered as "going after it". If the fish is stuck in front of the gill plates he is legal in my book. If he is stuck in the back or the tail area, or anywhere behind the gills, he is let go.

I have never fished with a pro that has truely foul hooked a fish and kept it for weigh in. The day I do, I will be the first to say something. It can sometimes be a fine line, and a personal call, but I don't think the hooks have to be directly in the mouth all the time to be a legal catch. It just has to be pretty obvious the fish was indeed going after the bait.

Did you ask the pro you were fishing with why he thought he could keep it? You might have had your conscience relieved to hear their answers.

Just my opinion...

Juls

[ETT]

Unless there has been an issue made of it, and a rule made stating that the fish must have the hook in the mouth, I would keep any fish hooked ahead of the gills. Fish hooked under the pectoral fins or in the side or any where behind the gills would be considered snagged & released.

It is really pretty obvious if the fish was after the lure or not. Incidental hook ups outside the mouth are not snagged fish.

[RANGER]

Juls,
ETT,

I TOTALLY agree with you on this and I operate with these guidelines as well! I have had many fish (Walleye, Musky, Bass, etc.) strike a lure/bait right at the boat, before my eyes, and get hooked in the head rather than the mouth. BUT, I can tell you that the fish had every intention of eating that bait! As far as I am concerned, it is fair-hooked. Then again, once I had a Musky charge a tandem spin bucktail at the boat and ended up IN the boat without the lure. I didn't keep 'em, either!

What's curious about "Just Curious" is that it is anonymous. Trolling, maybe?? ;-)


RANGER


"KEEP YOUR LINES WET, YOUR POWDER DRY and THE BEER COLD"!

[Waterfowler]

Hey Juls,

I do have to agree on the patience issue. I have started to acquire more in my maturity. Back when I gave mine away, I certainly didn't have the patience. We fished the flats on Oahe at night and as you know, night fishing only magnifies even the smallest of problems. We also caught plenty of fish on our other plugs so why mess around when I could be fishing, right??

I work with a guy who heads up to a "secret" lake in Canada each year. Matter a fact, he's there right now. Anyway, he only pulls reef runners. I'll probably pick some more up and test them out on Mille Lacs this fall. Until I get more bought I'll take my chances with the wally divers and shad raps.


Thanks for all the great advice here!!!


Waterfowler

[Just Curious]

No RANGER, not trolling. I just don't take any chances on the internet, especially on topics that some people find controversial. I would also never chastise someone else for protecting their privacy. I don't need any hate email or desire to defame anyone. I just thought it was an interesting point, tangential to this threads topic, that deserved some discussion.

That said, I personally agree with all of you. Whether a conservation officer would is another matter. I think they would say that the hook must be in the mouth, but I could be wrong. I believe some fish get hooked in the head while striking a bait. Others may initially be hooked in the mouth and eand up hooked in the head by the time you land them. For example, I've caught fish that, based on obvious hook entry points, were apparently first hooked on the rear treble and, when turning to run, get the middle or front treble hooked on the head or gill. Due to the twisting and torque during a fight, the mouth hooked treble tears out leaving the other treble hooked in the head.

I guess most of the "foul hooked" walleyes I've seen kept were hooked under the jaw by the jig or the stinger. Does that mean they were "going for it" or that a persons jig "found" its way under the fish and the person set the hook when the line bumped the fish? I don't know? But I operate under the same general guidelines you've all mentioned. I sleep fine at night too.

[RANGER]

Point taken, and, thanks for sharing.

We asked a CO one time about this very subject. It was opening day of trout and the COs were everywhere. Two came over to us and we engaged in a lengthy conversation about this and many other subjects. Bottomline - It DEPENDS!! He honestly told us he COULD TAKE ISSUE with it. Depends...........99.5% of the time he would consider it fair-hooked..........COP an attitude with him and you're on the wrong end of the stick! I guess you call it "interpretation". So, yeah, "dam_ if you do; dam_ if you don't"?


RANGER


"KEEP YOUR LINES WET, YOUR POWDER DRY and THE BEER COLD"!

[Just Curious]

P.S. I can also attest to the sharpness of Reef Runner hooks. I have stuck myself with them way too many times. Be careful when you handle these crankbaits. The reverse barb is nice - you can get it out of your net (or hand) easier.

I've had good luck on Green Bay using the Eriedescent and Blue/matte silver colors.

Is there a chart anywhere that matches the RR color numbers to their names? I hear about different colors (like "Cheap Sunglasses"), but the RR site only refers to the color schemes by number.

[www.reelbait.com]

they have a color display of reef runners

[Juls_WI]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-25-01 AT 11:02AM (CST)[p]On the Reef Runner site, if you click on the lure color your interested in, it will show a larger picture of the lure and also show you the name along with the number.
At least it does from the "standard" and "custom colors" pages. I'm not sure if it does when your in the "crankbaits" page. I would have to check it out. And, well...quite frankly you could do that just as easily as I could, so you can go check it out..heheh

Have a good day!

Juls

ok, curiosity got this cat, so I checked it out. If you click on the crankbaits page and then on the lure type your interested in, it shows the whole group with the name and numbers.
On the standard and custom colors pages it will show each individually when you click on it.

[Just Curious]

Thanks!

Now I can spend some more work, er..., free time shopping for lures!

;)