Sidescanning + Walleyes

[Jason Halfen]

Originally Posted by Prince of Worms

Agree about screen size. No doubt, but when I first tried SS, I had a 787.

Still works great for stripers and bait balls, but individual fish? Often, when at a distance of 120' or more, one wonders if the spec is a fish or static image.

I remain skeptical that SS can differentiate between rocky bottoms and eyes hugging same. Downscan and conventional sonar may be better, but SS is just too imprecise.......or so it seems.

In my experience, Side Imaging is a fantastic tool for imaging individual fish at a distance when the bottom is soft (mud) or sand.

The image attached shows a large number of individual fish over soft bottom on the left side image. How do I know they are fish and not just a rock? Look for the shadow....separation between the shadow and the primary return means that object is suspended off the bottom (a fish).

Can I see bottom-hugging fish over a firmer bottom using Humminbird Side Imaging? Sure can! To do so, I make use of the "Sharpness" function in the SI enhance menu. There are details on how I do that in this article:

http://www.jasonhalfenoutdoors.com/S...gVertical.html

Spotting an individual fish over irregular, rocky bottom is more challenging because rocks and fish both provide brighter white sonar returns. Can it be done? Sure can, especially when the fish are riding off the bottom. That makes their sonar shadows much more obvious and easy to spot. An example is in the second image, and more details are in this article:

http://www.jasonhalfenoutdoors.com/2Dcrappie.html

[Prince of Worms]

Jason...we all appreciate your propensity to publish via this blog to maintain your "professional" status. Three points for positive PR for your sponsors.

I found your post disingenuous. Statements like, "Sure can" implies no problems, no ambiguities, and few problems. You are supported by Humminbird, correct? Do commercial affiliations compromise your analysis and objectivity? To ask the question, is to answer it. Once you drink from the corporate trough, as most pro's do, credibility is compromised. IF as a Dr. you had no sponsors, etc., your credibility would be greater. In a University setting, commercial alliances would totally discredit your point of view.

My experience is markedly different in many situations.
In fact, more often than not, I have caught countless eyes off bars on which they were not recorded by conventional sonar including paper graphs, LMS digitals, LCX 15MT's, Uniden's, Interphase units, and some Humminbirds. On many sharp breaks, the fish will not show up. Even Doc Samson confirms this. Worse, in deep water, unless the eye's are substantial in size, the dots on the Side Image only appear as haze or noise.

Suspended crappies? Probably. I don't fish for them. Of interest to others, but I remain focused on 'eyes.

[reddog]

Prince, you sound like a smart guy.. you should be able to figure it out..

Dont ya think if you can see crappies, you can see walleyes.

Its not an exact science.. Put a camera down if you want verification.

[1860Angler]

Since I'm a weekend warrior I won't tell you my experience good or bad, I guess since I just fish on the weekends I don't know how read my sonar!! I'm also not sponsored or paid to tell you that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. You might be limiting your GOOD responses by excluding us weekend warriors!! Just a thought.

[Prince of Worms]

reddog....smart or not, here's the issue:

Crappies usually suspend. Yes, they are easy to pick up on side scanning.

Eyes do both. Some are open water...suspending fish, say at 30' over 100' -- these can be seen under the right settings. However, most lakes like this also contain LM bass, kentucky bass, stripers, crappies, etc. "Seeing an eye" is possible, but there are issues. The most important, IMO, is that side scanned fish are mere blips on the screen, regardless the brand of sonar. Why? Fish are futher away and I've yet to discover how to differentiate a walleye blip from that of a striper.

Setting #2: if walleyes are hugging the bottom, can SS differentiate between rocks, boulders, and fish? If so...at what ranges, what height off the bottom, and via what shapes? How do we know? Additionally, when looking for bottom-hugging fish, we also must consider suckers, drum, and catfish as the source of the images, assuming such are even distinguisable.

Why should we even care?

Well, how many anglers would like an honest answer to the question of whether side scan units are worth the extra $. If all one needs SS for is to mark locations of undewater obstructions, boulders, etc., borrow a friend's unit for a few days and record the GPS data. No need to buy or use SS. Conventional sonar may be sufficent. $600/unit vs $2700/unit?

[reddog]

Umm, Youre going to borrow a buddys 2k unit because youre too cheap to spring for it??


I spose everyone has friends like that..

You will never be able to differentiate species, unless there are significant features about the individual fish that will show up in the shadowing..like a paddle fish.

Look at the shadow of the fish to on the right side across from the date. does that shadow look like a walleye?

Do the fish in the 3rd picture look like Buffalo carp?

Not every fish swims exactly parallel with the boat in order to print the best image.

I hate to say that you have to use your imagination, because its really not imagination that we are dealing with. You have to try to figure out what the unit is printing..

[Prince of Worms]

reddog

Sorry you characterized me as cheap. I presume that wasn't a compliment. Sorry, too, that I and others are not all members of the 1%. Perhaps in our next lives. Or, perhaps we will soon all declare ourselves "Walleye Pro's" -- you know, the ones who always finish in bottom 50% of each pro tourney list --- and get 3 top-self units for free each year.

Eh, but as long as you are NOT cheap like many of us, why don't you spring for an Interphase iScan V180SE , an HDS-10 Gen2, and a Simrad. Then you can write a compelling analysis about which unit scans better than your 'bird, or even if any have screen pop-up notes for each dot that say "Buffalo" "Crappie" "Walleye" "Perch" "Sheepshead" or "Sucker."

Come on. Share the wealth. Buy a few extra units. Enlighten us poor, cheap blokes who have to think carefully before spending $2800 for a unit that will only produce shadows that can't be interpreted. Go ahead, buy a few extra units and go catch the next state record walleye. We'll be cheering for ya.

Did I misunderstand your question? You asked which dot was a buffalo and which was a walleye? Where is the legend or key to side scanning that says, "This dot is a walleye. But this dot is a sucker. But this dot is a sheepshead"? Without a key, how can anyone tell?

Oh...and how deep did you say those dots were? 1, 2, 3, or 5 feet off the bottom? For $2800, a top-shelf unit should be able to tell us.

Originally Posted by Prince of Worms

reddog

Sorry you characterized me as cheap. I presume that wasn't a compliment. Sorry, too, that I and others are not all members of the 1%. Perhaps in our next lives. Or, perhaps we will soon all declare ourselves "Walleye Pro's" -- you know, the ones who always finish in bottom 50% of each pro tourney list --- and get 3 top-self units for free each year.

Eh, but as long as you are NOT cheap like many of us, why don't you spring for an Interphase iScan V180SE , an HDS-10 Gen2, and a Simrad. Then you can write a compelling analysis about which unit scans better than your 'bird, or even if any have screen pop-up notes for each dot that say "Buffalo" "Crappie" "Walleye" "Perch" "Sheepshead" or "Sucker."

Come on. Share the wealth. Buy a few extra units. Enlighten us poor, cheap blokes who have to think carefully before spending $2800 for a unit that will only produce shadows that can't be interpreted. Go ahead, buy a few extra units and go catch the next state record walleye. We'll be cheering for ya.

Did I misunderstand your question? You asked which dot was a buffalo and which was a walleye? Where is the legend or key to side scanning that says, "This dot is a walleye. But this dot is a sucker. But this dot is a sheepshead"? Without a key, how can anyone tell?

Oh...and how deep did you say those dots were? 1, 2, 3, or 5 feet off the bottom? For $2800, a top-shelf unit should be able to tell us.

I'm a weekend warrior, non sponsored guy. I have to save my money and get what I can afford, and to that am happy with my 998. I'm not sure your brain allows for honest/unbiased thoughts but I can tell you that I find side scan a HUGE asset. Yeah, I can't tell if they are suckers or eyes but tell me which unit will do that.

Open your brain up for a moment and educate yourself, I find your line of questioning to be very immature and pointless.

[LWinches]

Perhaps I quality to offer an opinion. I fish most every day, only for walleye, only jigging and have for several years. I'm not sponsored by anybody.

“Yes, side scanning picks up bait, bait balls, and free roaming suspended walleyes and stripers.” I agree. This is what makes side scanning worth the costs. Finding the bait, bass and other fish often means you are in the right vicinity to find the walleye.

“What is not clear to me is whether it side scanning can pickup walleyes that are close to the bottom.” Here there is a big difference in theory and application; routine and special case scenarios. I don’t have a problem with Jason Halfen’s posts. Can he do this? Has he done this? I think so. I had a Hbird 997 but now use an HDS10 w/SS. For the specific situation you describe I think Hbird offers more capability because of all the fine tuning adjustments available that are not on the HDS. However, for me and my time on the water it is just not worth it to spend so much time fine tuning. For example, almost never will the depth be the same on both sides of the boat where I fish. The topography is very variable. My experience is that for optimum viewing (like Jason is talking about) I can only fine tune the adjustments for one side of the boat and that for a specific depth range. With the topography so variable I would have to spend all my time fiddling with the controls. Can it be done? I think on the Hbird yes. I think your criticism of Jason’s post are unjustified. I don’t care if he is sponsored or not, if his post is accurate. I think it is. Also if you will go back and review his other posts I think you’ll find that he and Doc Sampson have been great assets to people wanting to learn. They have profited from it. So what, school teachers get paid.

Setting #2: if walleyes are hugging the bottom, can SS differentiate between rocks, boulders, and fish? Go back and read Jason’s post again this time being a bit more objective. Following his instructions I think you could learn to do this, using an Hbird, for areas having a consistent enough topography to be worth spending the time on the fine tuning. I’ve not used the Lowrance LSS-2 so I won’t offer an opinion on that. The fine tuning Hbird offers the 998 and 1198 is not available on the LSS-1.

BTW, I am happy with my HDS w/SS. Features other than the side scanning held a higher priority in the decision to switch.

[reddog]

Originally Posted by Prince of Worms

reddog

Sorry you characterized me as cheap. I presume that wasn't a compliment. Sorry, too, that I and others are not all members of the 1%. Perhaps in our next lives. Or, perhaps we will soon all declare ourselves "Walleye Pro's" -- you know, the ones who always finish in bottom 50% of each pro tourney list --- and get 3 top-self units for free each year.

Eh, but as long as you are NOT cheap like many of us, why don't you spring for an Interphase iScan V180SE , an HDS-10 Gen2, and a Simrad. Then you can write a compelling analysis about which unit scans better than your 'bird, or even if any have screen pop-up notes for each dot that say "Buffalo" "Crappie" "Walleye" "Perch" "Sheepshead" or "Sucker."

Come on. Share the wealth. Buy a few extra units. Enlighten us poor, cheap blokes who have to think carefully before spending $2800 for a unit that will only produce shadows that can't be interpreted. Go ahead, buy a few extra units and go catch the next state record walleye. We'll be cheering for ya.

Did I misunderstand your question? You asked which dot was a buffalo and which was a walleye? Where is the legend or key to side scanning that says, "This dot is a walleye. But this dot is a sucker. But this dot is a sheepshead"? Without a key, how can anyone tell?

Oh...and how deep did you say those dots were? 1, 2, 3, or 5 feet off the bottom? For $2800, a top-shelf unit should be able to tell us.

I never expected a pop up telling me what fish it ws when I bought my birds.. In fact, I never thought it would be able to identfy the fish that it does..

umm, if you think I'm rich,, youre sorely mistaken.. I just have my priorities in line..

everyone that is thinking about buying this technology, is very fortunate that there are others that share the information, because it shortens the learning curve immensely..
It doesnt matter if the person is sponsored or not, (which I am not)...I bought my 1197 used for less than a new 998 would cost.

More to say, bbut its fathers day and Im going to the races..