Boat owners must read....

[fishintheboat]

Can't spell again - "may" should be more. I give up.

[nicko]

Lots of Miss-info and bad info here.

To be honest, i've spent the better part of my early career as a fuel injection engineer working on alternative fuels engines and technologies. Whats funny is to watch the bad info being passed as legitimate information.

here are a few facts:

We can make engines run on almost anything you can imagine, from peanut oil to grease to anything in between.

There are lots of reasons to use E-15 and lots not to. What does matter is what your engine was designed to run on when it was manufactured. Most cars run fine on E-10 because the were designed to. Same with boats and all others.

While it's easy to just say add 5% more, an engine not designed for it can only compensate so much. Yes, air/fuel ratio's are different, spark curves are different, octane ratings are different, combustion pressures and temps are all different. Modern electronics can compensate for quite a few of these things, but if the engine was not designed to run on E-15 then chances are issues will arise.

Hence we get corrosion, premature injector failures and piston ring issues due to temps and AFR differences and major engine failures.

Ive seen the studies on cars produced to date. Its amazing to see that some cars actually handle E-15 quite well, but many cars including cars made in 2009 and 2010 do not. many manufacturers have seen premature engine failures, failures of fuel pumps and lines as well as injector issues.

The bottom line is if it was designed explicitly for it, I wouldn't use it. Chances of failure go up exponentially.

Watch for more info on this, but i'd be weary of anyone just blindly saying it will run fine. They all run fine for awhile.....just not a long while.

Nick

[perchjerker]

Originally Posted by nicko

Lots of Miss-info and bad info here.

To be honest, i've spent the better part of my early career as a fuel injection engineer working on alternative fuels engines and technologies. Whats funny is to watch the bad info being passed as legitimate information.

here are a few facts:

We can make engines run on almost anything you can imagine, from peanut oil to grease to anything in between.

There are lots of reasons to use E-15 and lots not to. What does matter is what your engine was designed to run on when it was manufactured. Most cars run fine on E-10 because the were designed to. Same with boats and all others.

While it's easy to just say add 5% more, an engine not designed for it can only compensate so much. Yes, air/fuel ratio's are different, spark curves are different, octane ratings are different, combustion pressures and temps are all different. Modern electronics can compensate for quite a few of these things, but if the engine was not designed to run on E-15 then chances are issues will arise.

Hence we get corrosion, premature injector failures and piston ring issues due to temps and AFR differences and major engine failures.

Ive seen the studies on cars produced to date. Its amazing to see that some cars actually handle E-15 quite well, but many cars including cars made in 2009 and 2010 do not. many manufacturers have seen premature engine failures, failures of fuel pumps and lines as well as injector issues.

The bottom line is if it was designed explicitly for it, I wouldn't use it. Chances of failure go up exponentially.

Watch for more info on this, but i'd be weary of anyone just blindly saying it will run fine. They all run fine for awhile.....just not a long while.

Nick

agreed but its not 5% more eth its 50% more

[frogmaster]

No opinion from me just a FAQ Link from Yamaha Outboards here:


http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outboard...1/answers.aspx

[REW]

I have run many motors on 100% ethanol.
But, to do that, the fuel flow has to be 100% greater than the fuel flow with 0% ethanol and 100% gasoline.

So, if you have a fuel jet, the jet size needs to be doubled to get adequate fuel to the engine - when running 100% ethanol.

You will get a lot more power from the engine, and you will get 1/2 the fuel mileage when running ethanol.

So, does the change of 5% ethanol to fuel cause a concern?
Certainly it does for many engines. If an engine has been designed to run gasoline with ethanol added to +10%, the increase to +15% COULD cause a possible lean condition, if the fuel can not accommodate the leaner mix caused by the ethanol addition with out changing the fuel passages, or have an auto adjust on the rich lean mix of the fuel.

For many of the fuel injected engines, this addition of ethanol will be a non issue, because the sensors in the engines will sense the lean mix, increase the fuel flow - without changing the air flow and all will be well.

But for a carbed engine, then it is quite possible that the added ethanol might very well cause the user to change the jets in his carbs to accommodate the leaner mix caused by the ethanol.

In todays motors, there is little worry about component damage to the fuel system or fuel tanks since mainre inboard and outboard engines have been specified and built to handle the addition of ethanol to the fuel. As far as component change with the addition of ethanol, the damage will occur with 10% as it will with the 15% - if materials have not been changed to accommodate the fuel change.

But since todays engines have all been built to stand up to 10% ethanol, there is no reason to believe that they will also stand up to 15% ethanol just fine as well.

Just be aware that the added 5% ethanol MAY cause a lean run condition in the engine.

If you do load up your tank with 15% ethanol fuel, you might take your boat out for a run on the lake for 5-10 minutes at a wide open throttle setting.
Then, come back to shore, only slowing at the last minute, turn off the key and float to the dock. The idea is to get a good high speed run, NO slow speed or idling on the engine, and then pull a plug or two from the engine.

After a high speed run, your plugs should have a nice light tan color indicating perfect combustion.

If the plugs are dark, sooty, or oil covered, you are either running too much oil, or you are running rich on your fuel mix.

But, if your plugs are WHITE, you are running lean, and you won't be running that way long, without doing a melt down on the engine.

The simple fix, without re jetting the engine would be to go to a colder heat range plug and then retesting. If you go two plug ranges colder and can then get a 10 minute wide open run with a nice tan color on the plug, you can rest assured that the leaner mix of the higher ethanol content will be fine as long as you keep the cooler plugs in the engine.

p.s.
If you have a computer based injection system, you can load the tank with the 15% fuel, run it a bit to get the fuel through out the hoses and engine, and then take it to your local dealer to have them check the engine to be sure that the computer is correctly setting up the air fuel mix to properly handle the different requirement for a 15% ethanol mix.

Good luck
REW

[MJNeu]

these percentages of alcohol are never what they seem, Minnesota has laws saying 15%-20% ethanol, plus seasonal modifications in mix can be up to 25%... Many Car manufacturers didn't want to allow 15%, the warranty issues are alive and well, Harley Davidson has warranty issues with ethanol, Every spring I replace primer bulbs on neighbors weed whips, chain saws, and lawn mowers, because they didn't believe ethanol ate plastic parts...

[walcat]

It says in my manuals not to use over 10% etonel in my Johnson engines.

[Jeepman]

I too have heard the stories of E10 and E15 and what damage it does to outboard fuel systems.

I have been advised to make sure to keep "Marine Sta-Bil" in my boat fuel to keep E10 and E15 from causing damage.

Any comments on this advice?

Jeepman

if corn based fuel is so good why are they making us use it and not giving us a option in minnesota.
i will only use premium non oxygen fuel in any of my off road engines and when i use it in my car it turns out to be cheaper cause the mpg and power are so much better. any body doubts that just fill up with ethonal on a long trip and then on non oxygen based fuel on the next tank and see for your self.

if ehonal is so good why will minnesota not give the consumer an option for car fuel. reason, is inferior and if given a chance most people would use that alternative.

Thats why it is a mandate in Minnesota.

[boat nut]

The only thing ethanol is good for is Farming.