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  #11  
Old 02-20-2011, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by fishintheboat View Post
Boat manufacturers do not even have the testing of blends higher than E-10 to give data for certain. -
Boat engine-makers may not have emissions data to satisfy USEPA, but they should have the durability and materials compatibility data. All the major outboard manufacturers have been selling product into Brazil's 23% ethanol-fuels market for a long time.
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  #12  
Old 02-20-2011, 07:03 AM
fishintheboat fishintheboat is offline
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hempbake1 - Phase seperation occurrs more readily in straight gas mixtures. That is why our lawn mower gas goes bad over winter. Yarcraft91 further explains correctly what is happening but water/ethanol alone does not readily seperate otherwise the Vodka we buy would have a shelf life or go bad after fome point. It's all the factors combined that should be explained as Yarcraft91 touches on. I do not claim to have the word - have over 20 years research with ethanol so I do know a little but your input also helps to educate me -- Thanks!!!! I believe alcohol funny cars burn a methanol rich alcohol which is somewhat different the Ethanol. This is the type of input that is needed to get information from all sources!
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  #13  
Old 02-20-2011, 07:11 AM
fishintheboat fishintheboat is offline
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Originally Posted by yarcraft91 View Post
Boat engine-makers may not have emissions data to satisfy USEPA, but they should have the durability and materials compatibility data. All the major outboard manufacturers have been selling product into Brazil's 23% ethanol-fuels market for a long time.
I really on the manufacturers testing. They do test their motors extensively. Somtimes I think they may be reluctant to "upgrade" parts/pieces but I have alot of confidence in what they say. You are correct about Brazil - so this makes me question US only reports or data. Am I getting all the facts? I suspect not when a country like Brazil has over 93 percent of their auto fleet on blends higher than E-10. Don't know for sure about their boat fleet but most all of their gas is blended at higher than E-10.
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  #14  
Old 02-20-2011, 07:14 AM
fishintheboat fishintheboat is offline
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I would love to see Blender pumps so the consumer can decide what they would like to purchase. I do not agree with mandates. This might be the best answer to both worlds instead of mandates.
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  #15  
Old 02-20-2011, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishintheboat View Post
I really on the manufacturers testing. They do test their motors extensively. Somtimes I think they may be reluctant to "upgrade" parts/pieces but I have alot of confidence in what they say. You are correct about Brazil - so this makes me question US only reports or data. Am I getting all the facts? I suspect not when a country like Brazil has over 93 percent of their auto fleet on blends higher than E-10. Don't know for sure about their boat fleet but most all of their gas is blended at higher than E-10.
I understand all gasoline in Brazil contained at least 20% ethanol, since 1993. In 2007, that was raised to 25%.

In defense of the engine-makers, they have been handed a nasty problem in the USA.

Congress has mandated a fixed volume of ethanol that must be sold every year through 2023, regardless how much total motor fuel is sold. The amount of ethanol increases every year. The engine-makers have a moving target, somewhere is the range of 2X to 3X the amount of ethanol in fuel that we have in the current market.

In a closed-loop control fuel injection system, the air-fuel ratio can be automatically adjusted to assure the engine runs properly. Carbureted and open-loop control systems (as most outboards have) cannot adapt to changing ethanol content- that requires re-jetting (carbs) or re-programming (open-loop computerized fuel injection). So, as an engine-maker, you either need to develop a closed-loop engine control system (e.g., O2 sensor) or else provide the customer with a way to adjust his fuel/air ratio when the fuel ethanol content changes (which would probably violate current USEPA rules).

As for the "older" motors- I would not want the job of explaining to someone who bought a new outboard in 2011 that it's not going to run on the fuels available 10 years later- and that's where we're headed.
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  #16  
Old 02-20-2011, 08:13 AM
fishintheboat fishintheboat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yarcraft91 View Post
I understand all gasoline in Brazil contained at least 20% ethanol, since 1993. In 2007, that was raised to 25%.

In defense of the engine-makers, they have been handed a nasty problem in the USA.

Congress has mandated a fixed volume of ethanol that must be sold every year through 2023, regardless how much total motor fuel is sold. The amount of ethanol increases every year. The engine-makers have a moving target, somewhere is the range of 2X to 3X the amount of ethanol in fuel that we have in the current market.

In a closed-loop control fuel injection system, the air-fuel ratio can be automatically adjusted to assure the engine runs properly. Carbureted and open-loop control systems (as most outboards have) cannot adapt to changing ethanol content- that requires re-jetting (carbs) or re-programming (open-loop computerized fuel injection). So, as an engine-maker, you either need to develop a closed-loop engine control system (e.g., O2 sensor) or else provide the customer with a way to adjust his fuel/air ratio when the fuel ethanol content changes (which would probably violate current USEPA rules).

As for the "older" motors- I would not want the job of explaining to someone who bought a new outboard in 2011 that it's not going to run on the fuels available 10 years later- and that's where we're headed.
Thanks!! I agree 100%. I own a 2008 Merc 250 XS and I am concerned as all should be. It would be nice to see decisions by gov. made with sound data not just political ones. Thanks again for your experienced words. Happy Fishing and hope retirement is good to you!
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  #17  
Old 02-20-2011, 09:36 AM
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I haven't read every post of this thread so if this has already been pointed out I apologize. The EPA has approved the use of E15, congress hasn't mandated it's use. Don't look for E-15 pumps to be your only option anytime soon, actually I doubt you'll even see any anytime soon. The refineries, blending points and gas stations are not going to invest in the infrastructure to add E-15 as an option, remember they still have to offer E-10 for the pre 2001 vehicles.
On another note, in MN we do have some blender pumps where you can select blending rates from E-10 to E-85. I have usually selected E-35 and have had no troubles at all. If I get over E-50 my check engine light will come on on my old Taurus. I would not be one bit concerned running E-15 in my F115 Yamaha.
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  #18  
Old 02-20-2011, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by gsorenson View Post
I haven't read every post of this thread so if this has already been pointed out I apologize. The EPA has approved the use of E15, congress hasn't mandated it's use. Don't look for E-15 pumps to be your only option anytime soon, actually I doubt you'll even see any anytime soon. The refineries, blending points and gas stations are not going to invest in the infrastructure to add E-15 as an option, remember they still have to offer E-10 for the pre 2001 vehicles.
On another note, in MN we do have some blender pumps where you can select blending rates from E-10 to E-85. I have usually selected E-35 and have had no troubles at all. If I get over E-50 my check engine light will come on on my old Taurus. I would not be one bit concerned running E-15 in my F115 Yamaha.
You are correct- USEPA is allowing, not requiring, the sale of E15- for now. In a few years, the amount of ethanol mandated for sale in the US fuel supply will make E15 a requirement, E20 an option and E10 will go the way of leaded and no-ethanol gasolines- increasingly hard to find until you can't find it at all. Unless Congress re-amends the 2007 Clean Air Act Amendment, we are destined for an E22+ fuel supply by 2023. There are ways to deal with it, just costs money.

A big problem for the engine-makers is that if they tell us it's OK to use E15 in older engines, they have to satisfy USEPA that the engines will meet emission specs on that fuel and they can't prove that without expensive tests. USEPA did the tests for them on 2007-and-newer cars.

Last edited by yarcraft91; 02-20-2011 at 10:03 AM.
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  #19  
Old 02-20-2011, 03:57 PM
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It would be good to see what the manufactures say about the issue. I have always felt that water in the gas is not good for any engine and especially bad for high performance two strokes. Water and oil do not mix and ethanol would tend to allow water in the fuel. It is really an issue for snowmobiles. On the surface there are many questions.

Why don't farmers use ethanol in their tractors?
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  #20  
Old 02-20-2011, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Northland View Post

Why don't farmers use ethanol in their tractors?
Because they are diesels.......Most farmers do use a higher percentage of bio-diesel in there tractors than what is currently mandated though, at least in MN.
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