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Old 02-13-2011, 06:56 PM
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Default Boat owners must read....

With E15, Boaters, Anglers Will Need Extra Vigilance When Filling up at the Gas Station

ALEXANDRIA, Va., February 7, 2011 - With the EPA's recent decision to allow the use of gasoline with up to 15% ethanol (E15) in 2001 and newer model cars and trucks, Boat Owners Association of The United States (BoatUS) says that trailerboaters will need to remain extra vigilant when filling up their truck and trailered boat at the local gas station. That's because while E15 could be fine for the tow vehicle, it's not good - nor authorized by the EPA - for use with boats. A strong solvent, ethanol has been known to degrade marine fuel systems, damage engines, add safety concerns, and lead to expensive repair bills.



When filling up at gas stations, boaters are used to pulling up to the pump and filling up the tow vehicle first, and then putting the same fuel nozzle into the boat," said BoatUS Director of Damage Avoidance Bob Adriance. "If that happens with E15, it could be a big mistake."


The EPA intends to put a warning on the pump - a small label with the exact wording yet to determined. "This is going to be a lot different from the choices offered to boaters today, where it's nearly impossible to misfuel gas or diesel engines, or where there are few consequences when choosing 87 octane over a higher 93 octane gasoline, for example," added Adriance.



All of this means that when E15 starts to appear in gasoline stations, boaters must heed the warning on the pump and shouldn't even think about using it in a boat. Here's why:

* Going Lean isn't good: In addition to hydrogen and carbon found in regular gasoline, ethanol also contains oxygen, which means less air (or conversely, more fuel) is required for combustion. The term "enleanment" is used to describe what can happen when there is too much air and not enough fuel. While most cars and trucks on the road today have closed-loop systems that can adjust to prevent enleanment, most boats have open-loop systems which do not, adding a greater risk of heat-related damage to your boat's engine with E15.
* Compatibility questions: Many components on a boat come in contact with ethanol-laden gasoline, including fuel lines, fuel tanks, fuel pumps, fuel injectors, carburetors, pressure regulators, valves, o-rings, and gaskets. The compatibility of these components with any blend greater than E10 is currently unknown. The failure of only one of these components in your engine could lead to failure or, worse, a fire or explosion.
* A "good" thing isn't what it seems: Phase separation is what happens when gas becomes over-saturated with water, leading the water/ethanol mixture to separate from the gasoline and fall to the bottom of the tank (where the engine's fuel pickup is located). However, since ethanol absorbs water more readily than gasoline and it burns harmlessly through the engine, adding more ethanol to gas will decrease the chance for phase separation. You'd think that would be a good thing, right?

However, as you increase the amount of water in ethanol, this mixture also becomes more acidic, increasing the potential to corrode metal, including aluminum fuel tanks.

Also keep in mind that once gas has phase separated, the only remedy is to completely empty the tank. While BoatUS believes fuel additives in general are a good thing, it has not seen evidence of any additive being able to restore phase-separated gas back to its original state.
* Your warrantee won't help you: Marine engines are only warranted for use with up to 10% (E10) ethanol.

For more information on ethanol, go to BoatUS.com/seaworthy/ethanol.asp. Or, to ask a question or see a discussion on where to find ethanol-free gas at marinas, go the BoatUS ethanol message board at http://smtp.boatus.net/t?r=5&c=12206...41E1935D619F&;.
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  #2  
Old 02-18-2011, 09:06 PM
fishintheboat fishintheboat is offline
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If you believe this you obviously get your information from sheltered sources. When E-10 came out my boat motor and truck motor was going to be ruined. Well NOT. I have ran ethanol blended fuels since the early 80's and have not once had a problem related to the fuel I choose to burn. Please get all the facts and use some common sense so you can comment from an educated point of view. Don't mean to sound harsh but think that when making comments like this you should make sure you have the right facts! The EPA - Can't agree with everthing they say or do or say need regulating but E-15 will not ruin your motors.
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Old 02-19-2011, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishintheboat View Post
If you believe this you obviously get your information from sheltered sources. When E-10 came out my boat motor and truck motor was going to be ruined. Well NOT. I have ran ethanol blended fuels since the early 80's and have not once had a problem related to the fuel I choose to burn. Please get all the facts and use some common sense so you can comment from an educated point of view. Don't mean to sound harsh but think that when making comments like this you should make sure you have the right facts! The EPA - Can't agree with everthing they say or do or say need regulating but E-15 will not ruin your motors.
what information or documentation do you have to back up your post ?
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Old 02-19-2011, 02:12 PM
fishintheboat fishintheboat is offline
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If the ehtanol was a problem to boat/auto motors - Why is there no reports on that, Where is that evidence? There has been over 20 years of boat motors running on ethanol (E-10). Again, these statements have been made before but I have not heard of any friends or fellow fishermen that had past problems. I would think that in the 20+ years ethanol has been out there I would have heard or read about these myths being reality. Sure some of the older rubber hoses and such have been upgraded to be compatible but in the fush tourny series I have been invloved in for 20 years I have no examples of enginge trouble from the people I have experienced. I don't judge people for believing all they may read but again I have heard these myths before and these same warnings. I am most certain "media", manufacturer's or dealers would have dealt with it but I don't hear it. Maybe I am the one that is sheltered.?? It's mmuch like the "shepard by crying wolf", "you may fool me once but you will not fool me twice". Sorry if it offends but I can't even find blogs that address ethanol raleted problems with boat motors.
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Old 02-19-2011, 02:59 PM
fishintheboat fishintheboat is offline
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When you read the beginning post - *adding a greater risk of heat related damage due to "enleanment". Ethanol exposed to air does not become oxygenated. Heat related damage comes from poor maintenance and care. * "Compatibility with these components is currently unknown", That's because manufacturers have only limited studies with blends over E-10 - You can find that info. on their web-sites. "Fire/explosion" Straight gasoline is far more explosive. *Phase separtion will happen with gasoline not alcohol - alcohol absorbs water that will result in dilution. *Water mixed in with Ethanol increases its' acidity" That statement is absurd/ignorant and just false. I promote self education so I would say to check out multiple sources and look around the web for YOUR opinion. Don't just take a "spin" or "one sided" opinion, there is alot of info. out there but you need to gather education from all sides then make your opinion.
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Old 02-19-2011, 11:16 PM
hempbake1 hempbake1 is offline
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Fishintheboat, thanks for the input, but one cannot be completely closed to the unknowns that manufacturers of boat motors (especially 2 strokes) face with E15. E10 is known to be "Oxygenated fuel" used around the country and especially in the winter in some places to reduce pollution. With a 2 stroke if you raise the oxygen level of the fuel too high, well you know what happens,Boom you smoke a piston. Original poster never stated "Ethanol exposed to air" So the heat related damage which may occur is a very real situation. Todays newer engines are running on the ragged edge to satisfy EPA regulations that any blip in fuel quality can spell disaster. Have you ever watched an Alcohol Funny car explode and catch fire, pretty dramatic isn't it. Alcohol fuel in a confined space(combustion chamber) can produce some of the most wicked explosions you have ever witnessed. Just an example of volatility of alcohol infused fuel. Phase separation is a definite side effect of ethanol fuel that sits too long, maybe you ran your fuel out and replaced on a regular basis so you didn't have this problem, but it has been scientifically proven that e10 fuel will phase separate in a short time. Some additives can be added to slow this process down, but once phase separation has occured it cannot be reversed. Pump the old gas out and put fresh in. Ethanol is a corrosive agent, PERIOD. self educate yourself on that point. There are components in all internal combustion engines(gasoline) that are not designed to hold up against ethanol. Newer engines have better components that will tolerate ethanol and alot of progress has been made in this area over the years. I think you misunderstood the statement about water mixed in with ethanol. what he was saying is if you have phase separation and add more ethanol to the tank, the new fuel will absorb the moisture already present in the tank because of the alcohol in the new fuel. This in turn will raise the water content percentage to a point that an acidic condition can occur in the fuel which also raises its potential for corrosion. There are lots of studies to both sides of this most are biased to which ever side they are on, but look at the scientific studies and the chemical reactions that may occur. Ethanol is not without its troubles and it is not a cure all. it is a bandaid to a real problem. Self-educated people usually only have one side, Their side. Read from real true studies done by unbiased entities before making assumptions that what you educated yourself with is the word.
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Old 02-20-2011, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishintheboat View Post
If you believe this you obviously get your information from sheltered sources. When E-10 came out my boat motor and truck motor was going to be ruined. Well NOT. I have ran ethanol blended fuels since the early 80's and have not once had a problem related to the fuel I choose to burn. Please get all the facts and use some common sense so you can comment from an educated point of view. Don't mean to sound harsh but think that when making comments like this you should make sure you have the right facts! The EPA - Can't agree with everthing they say or do or say need regulating but E-15 will not ruin your motors.
I would not call the Boat/US Foundation a "sheltered source"

what makes you think that?
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Old 02-20-2011, 06:17 AM
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yarcraft91 yarcraft91 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishintheboat View Post
When you read the beginning post - *adding a greater risk of heat related damage due to "enleanment". Ethanol exposed to air does not become oxygenated. Heat related damage comes from poor maintenance and care. *
The problem the OP refers is that all outboard motor carburetor and many fuel injection systems deliver fuel to the engine by volume, with no air/fuel ratio feedback to correct delivery rate for fuel value. As the ethanol content increases, the fuel value/unit volume decreases. As the fuel value/unit volume drops, the consequence is that the engine runs leaner with higher fuel ethanol content. If you run a "properly maintained and cared for" engine fuel-lean, you can damage it.

Data from a Hot Rod magazine article:"While the stoichiometric (chemically ideal) air/fuel mixture ratio for gasoline is approximately 14.7:1, with ethanol it is around 9.79:1." http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/h...ure_ratio.html

Quote:
"Compatibility with these components is currently unknown", That's because manufacturers have only limited studies with blends over E-10 - You can find that info. on their web-sites.
I'm sorta with you on this one. The same engine makers that "worry" about 15% ethanol in the USA have sold engines in Brazil for near 20 years to run on 20%+ ethanol fuel. However, no one says the same materials are used to build Brazil-market engines as are used to build for the US market. Any blame there rests with the engine-makers.

Quote:
"Fire/explosion" Straight gasoline is far more explosive.
Gasoline, alcohol- either alone or in a mixture can form explosive vapors- that's why they are used as internal combustion engine fuels. Neither is explosive as a liquid.

Quote:
*Phase separtion will happen with gasoline not alcohol - alcohol absorbs water that will result in dilution.
Phase separation happens in alcohol-blend fuel because ethanol would rather dissolve in water than in gasoline. Get enough water in a gasoline/ethanol blend and there will be phase separation. The way to avoid phase separation is all-gasoline or all-ethanol fuel.

Quote:
*Water mixed in with Ethanol increases its' acidity" That statement is absurd/ignorant and just false.
Water and ethanol mixed together are not an immediate acidity problem. Water, ethanol, air and time combined lead to degradation of the ethanol to peroxides and organic acids. Since those four ingredients are a fact of life in boat fuel systems...

Quote:
I promote self education so I would say to check out multiple sources and look around the web for YOUR opinion. Don't just take a "spin" or "one sided" opinion, there is alot of info. out there but you need to gather education from all sides then make your opinion.
Good advice to both give and follow.

Last edited by yarcraft91; 02-20-2011 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 02-20-2011, 06:46 AM
fishintheboat fishintheboat is offline
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yarcraft91 Great post!!! I have been trying to get facts in but have been timed out four times now. I have over 20 years experience with ethanol and with Lab data daily to support. Bottom line is that there is more too it than what one side or another spins. I do think the US/BOAT foundation is biased and does not have the studies or data to support what they are saying neither does the Ethanol Industry and their data or reports. Boat manufacturers do not even have the testing of blends higher than E-10 to give data for certain. This affects us all both evironmentaly and to our equipment. All boat owners should be interested if this. I'll try to give real data as I can. Thanks to all -
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Old 02-20-2011, 06:51 AM
fishintheboat fishintheboat is offline
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hempbake1 - There is an additive added to Ethanol at a ratio of .00006 percent to ease Ethanol corrosion. This is more of a feel good scenario and proves ethanol is not as corrosive as publications want you to believe. This is based on my 20 years of Lab. data not what I read. I am not trying to offend just dizzy from all the spin!
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