Looking at houses, and am very annoyed... why do they do this

[sddan2]

Burr,

I might be able answer some of your questions. I recently built a 36 x 42 with an 18x8 and a 12x9 doors. I went with the spray insulation on 2x6 (it wasn't that much difference in cost and it was higher wind rated) and ran our radiant heat with an electric boiler. Because it is attached to our house I also get dual fuel ratings and and a lower rate from our local electrical Co op ( I am in a rural area of SD). I set the garage temp at 45 in the winter or I have condensation problems. I went with 18" cellulose blow in in the attic. I was strongly encouraged to run the insulation under the piping and did. While I don't have a separate meter for the garage I would guess your friend is spot on at about $260 per based on months when I don't run it. I noticed about a $20 per month drop when I went from 55 to 45 degrees.

The only drawback I can see would be if you have any cracking in the concrete.

[AllenW]

Originally Posted by Burr

Ranger 1860 - if I can ask a question or two - I'm looking at building something similar. Heat in the floor - any comments on the boiler to use? Gas/electric/capacity/brands? What are your heating costs like annually? How much insulation did you use in the ceiling? What wall construction did you use - 2X4, 2X6, Insulation type, etc.

I am already planning on putting all wiring surface mount in conduit, no recessed outlets or fixtures. I'm not sure if spray foam in a 2X4 wall actaully performs as advertised, or if I should just go with the 2X6 walls. I'm 98% sure I will have no storage in attic, allowing aggressive insulation in ceiling. Probably will not have heat in year one, but will from year 2 going forward. Friend of mine said he heated his 30X32 with infloor and recovery system for $261 last year? But the up front costs on in-floor are more. Did you foam under slab?

I thought about infloor heat for my garage but considering I keep it at about38 degree's when I wasn't in it, I needed something with a faster recovery, I went with a force air 80% furnace and then ducted where I wanted the heat to blow.

If you go infloor and use Nat gas or propane, stay away from the condesing boilers.


Seems no garage is big enough, you build a bigger one, you just stuff more crap into it.

I can't build the size I want due to code, but I'm thinking a 60x80" minimum now if I did....unfortnately I'm still collecting stuff..

I do have a 7 foot door and a 7.5 foot boat, ya 8 or 9 foot doors for sure.

Al

[PCDOC]

Our house has the attached 3 car with 16' and 9' doors. The only good thing about it is it's deep enough for us to pull in at an angle and still have enough room for a 2' deep bench at the back of the garage.

The garage really didn't matter since we bought a big enough lot I could build my dream shop. 40x70x12 with a 16x10 door. In floor heat, water, toilet, sink. Ended up with R31 in the walls after 1.5" foam between girters and r19 blanket insulation in the cavity. I didn't put insulation below the pex since my concrete guy told me not to. He has several LARGE buildings with floor heat and didn't do insulation under the slab and they are cheap to heat.

Started the build late last fall and barely got it enclosed before winter. Still not done, but it's dry and has lights/power. It has been a ton of work and have saved mucho denero on labor. If anyone is looking for a lighting solution..... spend the money up front and get T5 lights. WOW are they bright. Only have 8 fixtures in the shop (each holding six 4' T5 lamps) and it's crazy bright in there.

On paper I wanted to go bigger, but ran into the drain field so 70 deep was the max. After spending countless hours building it, I'm glad it wasn't bigger.

[1860Angler]

Originally Posted by Burr

Ranger 1860 - if I can ask a question or two - I'm looking at building something similar. Heat in the floor - any comments on the boiler to use? Gas/electric/capacity/brands? What are your heating costs like annually? How much insulation did you use in the ceiling? What wall construction did you use - 2X4, 2X6, Insulation type, etc.

I am already planning on putting all wiring surface mount in conduit, no recessed outlets or fixtures. I'm not sure if spray foam in a 2X4 wall actaully performs as advertised, or if I should just go with the 2X6 walls. I'm 98% sure I will have no storage in attic, allowing aggressive insulation in ceiling. Probably will not have heat in year one, but will from year 2 going forward. Friend of mine said he heated his 30X32 with infloor and recovery system for $261 last year? But the up front costs on in-floor are more. Did you foam under slab?

I used an Electro Industries 13.5KW Electric Boiler setup on dual fuel, which heats my garage floor, which is 30'x40' w/10' ceilings and my basement floor which is 32'x40' with 8'6" ceilings. My Electric bill is steep, but I also use electric to heat the water and have a 20KW Plenum Heater on dual fuel for the main and 2nd floor heat. I'm heating about 3850 square feet of house and 1200 square feet of garage and the dual fuel part of my electric bill will hit $375 per month in January and February. I have never shut off the heat in the garage, like I said it's always sunny and 55, so I can't say how much of that is from the garage. I went with 2x6 walls with R-21 fiberglass insulation and have 24" of blown in fiberglass insulation in the ceiling on the outer edges, I have a 12'x40' bonus room above the garage for cold storage and between that and garage is only 8" of fiberglass insulation, I wish I would have spray foamed between the garage and bonus room. I ran 2" foam under my slab and stapled the pex water line to the foam, I also ran 2" foam down to the frost footings on the outside of the garage. The other thing I wish I would have done would be upgraded garage doors. I didn't get the high R-Value garage doors and I know I loose a lot of heat through the doors. All that being said, I would never go back to not heating my garage, I don't know how much it cost's me every winter and don't want to know, it's worth every penny whatever it is!! All the snow and ice is melted off by morning, don't have to bundle up the kids to go out, it's like adding another 1200 square feet to my house. Another thing to remember is a good floor drain and an air exchanger. I didn't install and air exchanger in the garage the first winter and had a lot of condensation issues with all of the melting snow. I added an air exchanger and haven't had a moisture problem since.

[Burr]

Thanks for mentioning the air exchanger idea, I had not thought of that.

Our city has just adopted new parking laws that will go into effect on Aug 1, which is bumping up my garage building plans. I'm next to MSU Campus, and in what is not called Zone 1, with 3 hour parking limits on the street in front of my house. I've got a single car garage (where my wife parks), a single wide driveway - and 3 vehicles, plus boat. So I've got to come up with something fast to park a vehicle, and I might as well solve my rented boat storage, and shop space challenges as best I can. I don't have lot space to get to my back yard and my house is in the middle of the block - no capacity to drive to my back yard where there is space for a garage, to use it for vehicle/boat parking.

But - I have a rental property about 3 blocks from my house, on a corner lot, with lots of side yard space for a garage. I'm thinking 30X30; 28X32 or something along those lines. I do quite a bit of woodworking, and would do more if I had a space. Being 3 blocks away is not going to be ultra-convenient, but it will work. All my shop equipment is on wheels now, so pulling out the truck/boat to the street to have work space is workable. I often work in a friends garage that is heated, and have really noticed how lots of things have a longer life with the heated garage. Batteries in vehicles, tools, compressors, etc. If I can keep the heating costs down on the monthly bill by being a bit more investment up front, I think it will be workable. Still, I'm going to do this without incurring debt, I will be building a lot by myself, and calling on friends in the building industry. Thankfully I have been helping these friends for a few years with their projects, so they are making sure I call them. And thankfully I've got more of the right tools than it makes sense for me to have, I'll get use out of them.

Concrete is going to be the big bill. Once I get the slab ready, the structure will go up quick, and the interior finish work then be my project for a year or so. Knowing this would happen at some time, a couple years ago I was involved in a flood home buyout salvage process, and already have garage door, doors, windows, electrical service/panels, furnace, fixtures set aside. Should have kept one of those air exchangers though, darn. I'll use some type of a forced air heating unit for recovery, but in-floor I think is going to be my primary heat source. Since I won't have the dual fuel discount option, I'm pretty sure I'll go natural gas, which is already on the property. Will just have to have a separate meter run to the garage. The T5 lights are unbelievable. Bright and efficient.

[Pezman38]

I have a 36x32 building with 10'+ ceilings using a Mr heater in the corner. My gas bill was about nothing because I kept it at 48 and didn't really see a spike, we did insulate the ceiling 6" with cellulose, and R-13 in the walls with insulated garage doors.

I am really impressed on how efficient the corner unit is, I crank it to 60 and in 5 minutes it is ready.

I got this on sale for around $400
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...6363_200316363

[Box]

FWIW Burr,

I built 36x28, with 9.5' ceiling, and 18x8 and 10x8 doors (2" insulated steel), and 36" service door. 2x4 studs. Two small windows looking at house. Slanted slab towards big doors for drainage (we can't have drains). I got new home furnace and put my old home furnace out there, it works great and I keep ti at 38 all winter, and just crank it when I need/want to, and it heats up FAST! Not much of an increase in gas, amazingly maybe adds only $50-75 per month in dead of winter, if that, unless I am out there a ton. I have 50'x36' concrete driveway, and even though it is expensive, concrete all the way especially with boat or bikes.

Here is what I would do different:

• 2x6 walls for insulation
• storage trusses, just because - right now I have R13 insualtion up there only, because I store decoys in off season...
• put in wirsbo tubing, even if I am not sure I would boiler someday (messed up on my cabin garage by not putting in tubes and foam/foil)
• 10' ceiling - my cabin garage has 10+, and HUGE difference for the better.
• Put old central A/C out there just for the few times it would be cool
• Have those small windows in the overheard garage doors - cabin I did that and I like it better for light, and they are high enough that unlikely people would break in them.
• Go two blocks high from slab instead of just one, maybe, to get walls up higher to the 10'+ mark.
• plan for a water hookup in garage, even if you just use garden hose to hook up in summer, and drain outside if can't drain in garage.

Good luck! 36x28 is 1008 feet, and our limit is 1000', so I was able to just sneak over without modification

edit - 28' deep is plenty for a 18' walleye boat with 150, with tongue not swung away and motor tilted up, and still be able to walk all the way around it. Also have 1/2 ton ext. cab with tailgate down, and a workbench behind it, and still walk all the way around it, with doors closed. 30' or 32' would be great, but 28 is plenty of room unless a very long boat.

[1860Angler]

Originally Posted by Pezman38

I have a 36x32 building with 10'+ ceilings using a Mr heater in the corner. My gas bill was about nothing because I kept it at 48 and didn't really see a spike, we did insulate the ceiling 6" with cellulose, and R-13 in the walls with insulated garage doors.

I am really impressed on how efficient the corner unit is, I crank it to 60 and in 5 minutes it is ready.

I got this on sale for around $400
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...6363_200316363

I have thought about adding one of these to my garage for heat recovery when the doors are open and when I'm working out there to heat it up quick, would be a nice addition to the in floor heat.

[Pezman38]

Originally Posted by 1860Angler

I have thought about adding one of these to my garage for heat recovery when the doors are open and when I'm working out there to heat it up quick, would be a nice addition to the in floor heat.

I was worried about it at first, and kicking myself for not doing radiant heat from the floors.

Not anymore, made the right choice for my needs.

http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/IMAG0029.jpg

Storage trusses were a good call, better call would have been attic room trusses. I dont' go up there much though and too hot to want to be there long.

Things I wanted but couldn't get..codes blah.

1. Running Water
2. Floor drains
3. another 6 foot to each wall
4. 18' garage door, just a stupid call on my part planned everything else but this, live and learn