Doing an upgrade to HDS Live 9s

[Snag_Devil]

Hi all, thanks in advance. Figure this out makes my head hurt.

I have a 1995 Lund 1890 ProV with a 175 Johnson Fast Strike set up as follows:

HDS 7 gen 3 on the bow

connected to a Spotlight Scan transducer mounted to an Ultrex;
connected to my NMEA network;
connected to SS3D via ethernet cable; and
connected to SS3D via black cable to structure scan channel on head unit (I think the SS3D unit derives its power from the bow head unit?).

HDS 7 gen 3 on the console

connected direct to standard 83/200 transducer on transom;
connected to SS3D via ethernet; and
connected to NMEA

The 83/200 and SS3D transducers are on the transom. Spotlight scan is on the trolling motor. I also have a fuel sensor (best investment ever) and a paddle wheel for speed over water (important to me for trolling even though I think the paddle wheel's precision is suspect.

I've upgraded equipment, and now have the following to incorporate:

HDS9 Live for bow
HDS9 Live for console
3in1 transducer (part of kit)
3in1 transducer (part of kit)
83/200 HDI kayak transducer (6 foot cord)

I've read lots of posts here, and did lots of searches, but I can't seem to determine the answer to the following questions (and would like confirmation on a couple more)

1. I plan on running a 3in1 off of my Ultrex, which should be an improvement on the spotlight scan transducer. My understanding is that the 3in1 will only work properly on CH2 (black 9 pin) of my bow HDS unit. Does that I would mean I'd have to move my SS3D "power" connection to the console unit because the SS3D "power" won't work properly on CH1 (blue 9 pin)?

2. Is there a benefit to replacing my standard 83/200 skimmer with an HDI skimmer? If not, will I lose my paddle wheel sensor by using the 7 pin to 9 pin connector or is that only if the sensor is part of the transducer? If I should upgrade to the HDI skimmer, should I find a way to extend the cord on the kayak model or buy a new HDI skimmer? Which CH do I run it to if I have my SS3D on CH2 of my console unit?

3. Is there any reason whatsoever to keep my HDS7 gen 3s in the system? I don't really have room on the console, but I do have real estate on the bow and at the stern.

4. Is there a reason to put the remaining 3in1 on the transom opposite the SS3D?

5. Can I turn off transducers with the Live units or am I required to blast sonar all day like I'm a battleship searching for subs? I'm wasn't able to shut them off with the Gen 3s.

6. Last, all of this takes power. Do you recommend a separate dedicated battery for electronics? I have space in the front of the boat and could mount a bracket if need be.

I fish bass, walleye, and salmon, mostly on the Columbia but also go to a few lakes. Generally I fish around 15-40 feet of depth. I troll, hover, drift, and also burn bank. I don't fish salt or tidewaters. Sorry for the info dump, but one thing I learned from all my searching is that you all appreciate knowing the whole picture.

[Waxy]

Originally Posted by Snag_Devil

Hi all, thanks in advance. Figure this out makes my head hurt.

I have a 1995 Lund 1890 ProV with a 175 Johnson Fast Strike set up as follows:

HDS 7 gen 3 on the bow

connected to a Spotlight Scan transducer mounted to an Ultrex;
connected to my NMEA network;
connected to SS3D via ethernet cable; and
connected to SS3D via black cable to structure scan channel on head unit (I think the SS3D unit derives its power from the bow head unit?).

HDS 7 gen 3 on the console

connected direct to standard 83/200 transducer on transom;
connected to SS3D via ethernet; and
connected to NMEA

The 83/200 and SS3D transducers are on the transom. Spotlight scan is on the trolling motor. I also have a fuel sensor (best investment ever) and a paddle wheel for speed over water (important to me for trolling even though I think the paddle wheel's precision is suspect.

I've upgraded equipment, and now have the following to incorporate:

HDS9 Live for bow
HDS9 Live for console
3in1 transducer (part of kit)
3in1 transducer (part of kit)
83/200 HDI kayak transducer (6 foot cord)

I've read lots of posts here, and did lots of searches, but I can't seem to determine the answer to the following questions (and would like confirmation on a couple more)

1. I plan on running a 3in1 off of my Ultrex, which should be an improvement on the spotlight scan transducer. My understanding is that the 3in1 will only work properly on CH2 (black 9 pin) of my bow HDS unit. Does that I would mean I'd have to move my SS3D "power" connection to the console unit because the SS3D "power" won't work properly on CH1 (blue 9 pin)?

2. Is there a benefit to replacing my standard 83/200 skimmer with an HDI skimmer? If not, will I lose my paddle wheel sensor by using the 7 pin to 9 pin connector or is that only if the sensor is part of the transducer? If I should upgrade to the HDI skimmer, should I find a way to extend the cord on the kayak model or buy a new HDI skimmer? Which CH do I run it to if I have my SS3D on CH2 of my console unit?

3. Is there any reason whatsoever to keep my HDS7 gen 3s in the system? I don't really have room on the console, but I do have real estate on the bow and at the stern.

4. Is there a reason to put the remaining 3in1 on the transom opposite the SS3D?

5. Can I turn off transducers with the Live units or am I required to blast sonar all day like I'm a battleship searching for subs? I'm wasn't able to shut them off with the Gen 3s.

6. Last, all of this takes power. Do you recommend a separate dedicated battery for electronics? I have space in the front of the boat and could mount a bracket if need be.

I fish bass, walleye, and salmon, mostly on the Columbia but also go to a few lakes. Generally I fish around 15-40 feet of depth. I troll, hover, drift, and also burn bank. I don't fish salt or tidewaters. Sorry for the info dump, but one thing I learned from all my searching is that you all appreciate knowing the whole picture.

1. Yes, you'll connect the 3in1 to CH2. Your SS3D connects to the network via Ethernet, it does not plug into the sonar connection (CH1 or CH2) on your sonar unit. As long as the box has power, you're good to go, just connect the ethernet cable from your SS3D to either one of your sonar units. You'll have the option to view DI/SI from either the 3in1 or the SS3D on all units on the network.

2. In my opinion, the HDI 83/200 is significant improvement in 2D performance over the standard HST-WSBL, but I'm not sure on the consensus. The HDI 83/200 will work on both channels. You can buy a 15' transducer extension cable for far less $$$$ than another HDI transducer, that's definitely what I would do. I'm stumped on your SS3D connecting to CH2 though, it should connect via ethernet only. I'm also not sure on the paddle wheel, I have no experience with them, but nothing really changes on the 2D front when it comes to 7 pin vs 9 pin. I would suggest to you that you get every bit as accurate a speed with the built in GPS, or even better, a Point1, but I can see the use of the paddlewheel if fishing current.

3. That's entirely up to you. You could use it as a dedicated mapping unit, 2D, unit, anything you'd like. With the latest software, it will play nice with your Lives for sonar, mapping and DI/SI, but I don't think it will display Active Target.

4. Not really, but the AI 3in1 does give you very good DI/SI performance, and would give you some redundancy for 2D, and it provides surprisingly good 2D performance. That would be up to you. I'm sure there's a market for it if you wanted to sell it.

5. Simply select "Stop Sonar" from the sonar menu and it will no longer ping the selected transduder.

6. I always recommend a "house" battery, because all of those electronics, plus livewells, 12V accessories, etc... take a lot of power, and running out of power really sucks. It also lets you run all of your electronics to a single source, which helps eliminate electrical interference. It's likely not a necessity, but it is nice peace of mind.

Waxy

[Snag_Devil]

Thanks so much Waxy. I have a few follow up questions I’m hoping you might weigh in on?

1. Yes, you'll connect the 3in1 to CH2. Your SS3D connects to the network via Ethernet, it does not plug into the sonar connection (CH1 or CH2) on your sonar unit. As long as the box has power, you're good to go, just connect the ethernet cable from your SS3D to either one of your sonar units. You'll have the option to view DI/SI from either the 3in1 or the SS3D on all units on the network.

So the SS3D can derive its power from the head unit, which is how it’s currently wired. There is a diagram in the SS3D installation manual. If I have an empty slot in CH1, that would be the easiest solution unless there is a benefit to having a power switch on the SS3D? Shouldn’t the SS3D show up with the naming convention of the SS3D transducer? Right now it shows up as CH1 transducer?

2. In my opinion, the HDI 83/200 is significant improvement in 2D performance over the standard HST-WSBL, but I'm not sure on the consensus. The HDI 83/200 will work on both channels. You can buy a 15' transducer extension cable for far less $$$$ than another HDI transducer, that's definitely what I would do. I'm stumped on your SS3D connecting to CH2 though, it should connect via ethernet only. I'm also not sure on the paddle wheel, I have no experience with them, but nothing really changes on the 2D front when it comes to 7 pin vs 9 pin. I would suggest to you that you get every bit as accurate a speed with the built in GPS, or even better, a Point1, but I can see the use of the paddlewheel if fishing current.

The HDS Live manual says that if I have a 7 pin to 9 pin connector and the transducer has a paddle wheel, the paddle wheel won’t work. But I suspect that shouldn’t be true if the paddle wheel is separately connected via NMEA. I fish current a lot and speed through water is important for finicky salmon. This is academic, because you’ve convinced me that the HDI transducer offers better 2D performance.

So which HDI transducer? There’s three of them with a 9 PIN.

BLACK HDI SKIMMER MED/HIGH 455/800 9PIN
000-12728-001 Price = x

HDI SKIMMER LOW/HIGH 455/800 9PIN (probably not this one as I fish under 100 feet)
000-12569-001 Price = 2x

LOWRANCE HDI SKIMMER M/H 455/800 9PIN
000-12570-001 Price = x

I’d prefer it have the temperature sensor too.

3. That's entirely up to you. You could use it as a dedicated mapping unit, 2D, unit, anything you'd like. With the latest software, it will play nice with your Lives for sonar, mapping and DI/SI, but I don't think it will display Active Target.

I see now in another thread that the HDS Gen 3 won’t present the dreaded “legacy” problem. Thanks Hawker, this opens up some options.

4. Not really, but the AI 3in1 does give you very good DI/SI performance, and would give you some redundancy for 2D, and it provides surprisingly good 2D performance. That would be up to you. I'm sure there's a market for it if you wanted to sell it.

Thanks, I’ll probably pass on installing it then.

5. Simply select "Stop Sonar" from the sonar menu and it will no longer ping the selected transducer.

Does the transducer only ping when selected now? I fish one lake that is heavily pressured and it would be nice to leave the units on for my historical graphs, but not ping the fish.

6. I always recommend a "house" battery, because all of those electronics, plus livewells, 12V accessories, etc... take a lot of power, and running out of power really sucks. It also lets you run all of your electronics to a single source, which helps eliminate electrical interference. It's likely not a necessity, but it is nice peace of mind.

Excellent. I think I’ll do this.

This board is amazing. Thank you!

[Hawker]

Sorry for jumping in so late on this but have been kinda tied up the past couple days with fishing tasks ��. Firstly, I'm trying to wrap my head around the most confusing (to me) part of all this, which is the SS3D connection mentioned. SS3D consists of a transducer that has two (2) numbered connectors at the end of the cable that plug into the two (2) corresponding numbered ports on the bottom of the SS3D module. The SS3D module then has a power connector at the top right of the module with red, yellow and black leads, and three (3) Ethernet ports (yellow) in the center at the top. The SS3D module can only be powered from the power cord, which should be a switched source (recommended). The SS3D is then connected to an MFD via Ethernet either directly, or by the means of an NEP. Where I am confused is this statement ("connected to SS3D via black cable to structure scan channel on head unit (I think the SS3D unit derives its power from the bow head unit?"). The head unit (MFD) cannot and does not provide power to the SS3D, so admittedly I'm a little hornswaggled and cornfused at this point as to what is actually hooked up where, and to what.

[Waxy]

Originally Posted by Snag_Devil

Thanks so much Waxy. I have a few follow up questions I’m hoping you might weigh in on?

1. Yes, you'll connect the 3in1 to CH2. Your SS3D connects to the network via Ethernet, it does not plug into the sonar connection (CH1 or CH2) on your sonar unit. As long as the box has power, you're good to go, just connect the ethernet cable from your SS3D to either one of your sonar units. You'll have the option to view DI/SI from either the 3in1 or the SS3D on all units on the network.

So the SS3D can derive its power from the head unit, which is how it’s currently wired. There is a diagram in the SS3D installation manual. If I have an empty slot in CH1, that would be the easiest solution unless there is a benefit to having a power switch on the SS3D? Shouldn’t the SS3D show up with the naming convention of the SS3D transducer? Right now it shows up as CH1 transducer?

See Hawker's response.

We need to make sure we're talking about the same thing when when we're talking about the SS3D.

I attached a pic of the SS3D I'm referring to, I've got a feeling you actually have an LSS2 unit if you need to plug it into the back of your sonar unit.

Once we get this figured out, we can decide what to do, but the AI 3in1 is WAYYYY better than the old LSS2 or Totalscan for DI and SI.

2. In my opinion, the HDI 83/200 is significant improvement in 2D performance over the standard HST-WSBL, but I'm not sure on the consensus. The HDI 83/200 will work on both channels. You can buy a 15' transducer extension cable for far less $$$$ than another HDI transducer, that's definitely what I would do. I'm stumped on your SS3D connecting to CH2 though, it should connect via ethernet only. I'm also not sure on the paddle wheel, I have no experience with them, but nothing really changes on the 2D front when it comes to 7 pin vs 9 pin. I would suggest to you that you get every bit as accurate a speed with the built in GPS, or even better, a Point1, but I can see the use of the paddlewheel if fishing current.

The HDS Live manual says that if I have a 7 pin to 9 pin connector and the transducer has a paddle wheel, the paddle wheel won’t work. But I suspect that shouldn’t be true if the paddle wheel is separately connected via NMEA. I fish current a lot and speed through water is important for finicky salmon. This is academic, because you’ve convinced me that the HDI transducer offers better 2D performance.

So which HDI transducer? There’s three of them with a 9 PIN.

BLACK HDI SKIMMER MED/HIGH 455/800 9PIN
000-12728-001 Price = x

HDI SKIMMER LOW/HIGH 455/800 9PIN (probably not this one as I fish under 100 feet)
000-12569-001 Price = 2x

LOWRANCE HDI SKIMMER M/H 455/800 9PIN
000-12570-001 Price = x

I’d prefer it have the temperature sensor too.

Either the top one or the bottom one, the only difference between those two as far as I know is the top one is black, and the bottom one is blue and says Lowrance on it. They both have a temp sensor. Make sure you double check the cable length before you order!

Is the paddle wheel you're using built into the transducer? Or is it a separate sensor unit that connects via NMEA2000?

https://www.lowrance.com/lowrance/ty...ducers/st-tbl/

https://www.lowrance.com/lowrance/ty...eed-sensor-pk/

Regardless, it looks like your problem would be solved easily and reasonably cheaply by going with the second option. If you can connect via NMEA, then you're set.

4. Not really, but the AI 3in1 does give you very good DI/SI performance, and would give you some redundancy for 2D, and it provides surprisingly good 2D performance. That would be up to you. I'm sure there's a market for it if you wanted to sell it.

Thanks, I’ll probably pass on installing it then.

We can revisit this once we figure out the SS3D.

5. Simply select "Stop Sonar" from the sonar menu and it will no longer ping the selected transducer.

Does the transducer only ping when selected now? I fish one lake that is heavily pressured and it would be nice to leave the units on for my historical graphs, but not ping the fish.

The transducers will all ping by default unless you go into the menu and stop sonar. You have complete control over which transducers ping and when. You can stop sonar on all of them except the one you're currently using, including the DI/SI pings.

Waxy

[Hawker]

Whewwww, , , , , eh Waxy lol!! I sent a PM to the OP offering to connect up via phone to discuss his rigging and muddle thru stuff. Hopefully he'll respond and can get it all lined out! Potentially he's got an awesome setup once it's rigged up correctly!!

[Waxy]

Originally Posted by Hawker

Whewwww, , , , , eh Waxy lol!! I sent a PM to the OP offering to connect up via phone to discuss his rigging and muddle thru stuff. Hopefully he'll respond and can get it all lined out! Potentially he's got an awesome setup once it's rigged up correctly!!

No doubt.

Good on ya Hawker. It will be a sweet setup!

Waxy

[Ltrain]

Of course you guys( Hawker,Waxy) have great info to help the OP.
When i read this and the OP said that the SS3D got its power from the head unit- I interpreted this as the SS3D probably has the yellow trigger wire connected to the Sonar unit so when he powers up the Sonar the SS3D powers on too.I bet if he checks he will see his power cord run to 12v and his trigger wires connected.

I too highly recommend the HDI for 2d Sonar. I'd run a Hdi for 2d off the transom and the 3-1 for SS/DS . Add a point 1, a second house battery, junk the spotlightscan-add the SS3D transducer to trolling motor ,move the gen 3 to the bow and use it in a dedicated 2 screen setup- 2d on one SS/DS on the other , sonar on one, gps on the other etc.

With those suggestions i think the OP will have a great system

[Hawker]

Now, if it were me, I'd remove the SS3D completely, mount one AI 3-in-1 on the transom, the other on the TM. I'd retain the existing 2D skimmer transducer and paddle-wheel and utilize a 7/9 pin adapter cable to HDS Live at console making sure to select the correct transducer in Sonar Installation. The 2D crystals in it are the exact same as will be found in an HDI transducer, as well as those found in an AI 3-in-1. Retain of course any existing N2K network, ditch anything else!

Adding yet another "Structure" source like an HDI and retaining the SS3D only adds to the headache of having to turn off multiple sources that produce interference. Trust me, having four Structure sources "On" at the same time produces plenty of interference! IMHO, the AI 3-in-1 provides every bit as good of side imaging as that of the SS3D, and unless 3D is something one uses a lot and relies on (most in truth simply don't) the SS3D is unneeded.

Like I said, if it were me, that's the way I'd set the system up based on the information provided. I might strongly consider replacing the Ultrex with a Ghost giving you full functionality with the Live units and of course indulging in an Active Target mounted on the Ghost. Course, that's a few more $$'s to boot lol!

[Ltrain]

I missed where the OP has two 3in1's - upon revision I too would ditch the SS3D( they still sell for a good penny on secondary market) and put the second 3in1 on the trolling motor.

Question- does the live function like the sonarhub where if you have a transducer with a xid plugged in it regulates the other port to 2d sonar only?
If so that would eliminate crosstalk with the HDI, would it not? Just wondering