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1997 Lund Pro-V Deck Fill Grounding with Aluminum Hull - Walleye Message Central
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Old 07-26-2021, 02:18 PM
bladpart bladpart is offline
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Default 1997 Lund Pro-V Deck Fill Grounding with Aluminum Hull

I had a separate thread about this but am thinking I categorically posted it in the wrong area. I wanted to redirect the discussion here in case there's any additional insight but am unable to move the thread.

Just a quick summary of the thread. My folks have a 1997 Lund Pro-V 1800. While fixing some wiring, we noticed that the black wire for the fuel sender was grounded to the hull (even though it was disconnected from the battery and motor). We noticed that this is because there's a green ground wire connected between the deck fill fuel inlet and the fuel sender.

From what I can tell, the metal deck fill is supposed to be grounded via the fuel sender plate to the negative battery terminal. I think however that there is a problem with this because the grounding wire is making contact with the aluminum hull where it's been connected to the deck fill. The ground wire is connected using a ring terminal slipped over one of the fasteners used to fasten the deck fill to the aluminum hull and secured with a lock nut. The ring terminal is being compressed between the lock nut and unpainted aluminum hull.

This sounds incorrect to me, although I'm not sure how best to fix it. As ltrain said in the post I linked, I agree that it sounds like we're making a redundant hull connection at this point. The deck fill is already making contact with the hull without the ground wire. If that alone is not sufficient, I would assume that the deck fill needs to be insulated from the aluminum hull and ultimately the ground wire should be open circuit to the hull (infinite ohms) while it's not connected to the fuel sender plate (which is connected to the negative battery terminal/motor block).

Am I thinking of this correctly? Either remove the wire because the metal deck fill is fastened directly to the aluminum hull already or maybe add a teflon washer between the ground ring terminal and the aluminum hull if we want to retain the wire?

The fuel tank itself is plastic by the way, so no need to have a wire between the deck filler and the tank. And the sender plate is already grounded through the negative post of the battery.
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  #2  
Old 07-26-2021, 02:44 PM
Ozark Bob Ozark Bob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladpart View Post
I had a separate thread about this but am thinking I categorically posted it in the wrong area. I wanted to redirect the discussion here in case there's any additional insight but am unable to move the thread.

Just a quick summary of the thread. My folks have a 1997 Lund Pro-V 1800. While fixing some wiring, we noticed that the black wire for the fuel sender was grounded to the hull (even though it was disconnected from the battery and motor). We noticed that this is because there's a green ground wire connected between the deck fill fuel inlet and the fuel sender.

From what I can tell, the metal deck fill is supposed to be grounded via the fuel sender plate to the negative battery terminal. I think however that there is a problem with this because the grounding wire is making contact with the aluminum hull where it's been connected to the deck fill. The ground wire is connected using a ring terminal slipped over one of the fasteners used to fasten the deck fill to the aluminum hull and secured with a lock nut. The ring terminal is being compressed between the lock nut and unpainted aluminum hull.

This sounds incorrect to me, although I'm not sure how best to fix it. As ltrain said in the post I linked, I agree that it sounds like we're making a redundant hull connection at this point. The deck fill is already making contact with the hull without the ground wire. If that alone is not sufficient, I would assume that the deck fill needs to be insulated from the aluminum hull and ultimately the ground wire should be open circuit to the hull (infinite ohms) while it's not connected to the fuel sender plate (which is connected to the negative battery terminal/motor block).

Am I thinking of this correctly? Either remove the wire because the metal deck fill is fastened directly to the aluminum hull already or maybe add a teflon washer between the ground ring terminal and the aluminum hull if we want to retain the wire?

The fuel tank itself is plastic by the way, so no need to have a wire between the deck filler and the tank. And the sender plate is already grounded through the negative post of the battery.
Something like this(a safety issue) needs to have an authority answer your question. I would think Lund could give you the proper grounding or possibly the Coast Guard. This is not something where common sense or opinion will guide you. Hopefully you have no other item that has a ground attached to the hull. Electrolysis could also be an issue, but the safely grounded filler and tank is a must to have correct. JMO Bob

Last edited by Ozark Bob; 07-26-2021 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 07-26-2021, 04:06 PM
REW REW is offline
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From another source:

"FEDERAL LAW
183.572 - Grounding
Each metallic component of the fuel fill system and fuel tank which is in contact with fuel must be statically grounded so that the resistance between the ground and each metallic component of the fuel fill system and fuel tank is less than 100 ohms.

Fuel flowing from the dispensing nozzle into a fuel tank is a potential source of a static electric charge which could cause a spark between the dispensing nozzle and metal component of the fuel tank fill system. To prevent such a spark from occurring, metallic components of the fuel tank fill system and metallic fuel tanks must be grounded.
Grounding or bonding may be accomplished by connecting the metallic components electrically by running a wire from one component to the next, and so forth to the boat’s ground. Grounding can usually be accomplished by a connection to the common bonding conductor or the engine negative terminal.
If the fuel tank deck fill fitting is nonmetallic, and nonconductive hose is used as a fill pipe, there is no need for grounding the fill fitting. Chrome-plated plastic fill fittings are treated the same as metallic fittings.
NOTES:

If a metal hose attachment fitting is used, it must be grounded.
Fill cap retaining chains need not be grounded.
FIGURE 36 - Fuel Fill System Grounding"

-------------------------
Further more, it has been stated that with an aluminum hull, as soon as the engine is bolted to the boat, the boat negative ground - which is also the metal in the block of the engine is connected to the hull of the boat. As a result, the boats electrical negative which is the boat starting battery negative terminal is electrically connected to the motor. Since this is where the - terminal of the battery is connected.

Then, because the boat is bolted to the metal of the hull through the motor mounting bolts - although it may not be a sound electrical connection, causes the boats electrical ground point is nearly always at the same potential as the hull of the boat.

However, to be sure, the ground wire from the metal parts of the fuel system to the hull is correct. Furthermore, to be 1000% positive about ground potentials, there may also have a ground wire connecting between the boats hull and - boat battery supply to insure that the fuel system filler is at true ground.

Based on the information above as well assorted information from other sources, it appears that the metal grounding of the Lund metal hulled boat and also to the battery is the way that Lund deals correctly with the federal requirement to insure that there is a positive ground to the metal parts of the boats fueling system.

But, if a person wanted to be 1000% sure that they were in good shape, one could run a wire from the metal fuel fill parts directly to the frame of the engine or directly to the - terminal of the boat starting battery which is the boat's electrical system.

Note the statement in the federal law that it is all right to connect from one part of the boat to another part of the boat to complete the electrical grounding system for the boats metal fueling parts.

Last edited by REW; 07-26-2021 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 07-27-2021, 05:15 AM
Ozark Bob Ozark Bob is offline
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Good job REW. Sounds like everything is grounded to the hull.
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Old 07-27-2021, 08:26 AM
REW REW is offline
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Bob,
Just remember, the hull is grounded incidentally through this process. However, the hard direct ground is to the - terminal of the engine starting battery. i.e. the official "boat ground."


So, the hull is never to be considered the primary boat ground. The - terminal of the battery is the boat ground. It just happens that for metal hulled boats, the grounding of the metal hull is a by product of mounting the motor on the hull. But, there still must be a hard wire connection from each of the primary - necessary grounds back to the final "boat ground" or the - terminal of the engines starting battery.

Take care
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Old 07-27-2021, 08:57 AM
bladpart bladpart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REW View Post
Bob,
Just remember, the hull is grounded incidentally through this process. However, the hard direct ground is to the - terminal of the engine starting battery. i.e. the official "boat ground."


So, the hull is never to be considered the primary boat ground. The - terminal of the battery is the boat ground. It just happens that for metal hulled boats, the grounding of the metal hull is a by product of mounting the motor on the hull. But, there still must be a hard wire connection from each of the primary - necessary grounds back to the final "boat ground" or the - terminal of the engines starting battery.

Take care
That's absolutely correct. I'm convinced at this point that the deck fill by itself (no grounding wire) should NOT have continuity to the hull and just needed some reassurance. It should be insulated from the hull and only be connected to ground through the negative battery terminal, and only have continuity to the hull when the motor battery cables are connected (as a matter of course due to the motor->transom interface).

I cannot understand why the deck fill currently has continuity to the hull without any of the wiring hooked up. My best guess is that there must have been insulating material (teflon washer or something similar) and it degraded over time causing the deck fill to short directly to the hull. I can't imagine Lund would've done that intentionally because it would certainly cause electrolytic corrosion. And as the ABYC regs indicated, we need to be grounding the deck fill to to the negative terminal of battery for the motor.
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Old 07-27-2021, 06:00 PM
Ozark Bob Ozark Bob is offline
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If something, non current carrying is using the hull for ground there is no electrical corrosion. If insulation was intended it would certainly have a rubber grommet or washer to isolate it. JMO Bob
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Old 07-28-2021, 09:54 AM
MarkG MarkG is offline
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What might help understand is thinking in terms of what the conductor is doing. There are 2 types of ground conductors. Ground-ED and Ground-ING. Grounded conductors are for the purpose of using a common ground , such as the chassis of a car, as a current carrying return path to battery negative. A Ground-ING conductor would not be used as a current path. But rather to assure that component remains at zero potential in relation to other components as well as for static discharge. We all know that using the hull as a current return path is a no no. It's likely the ground wire on the fill tube is simply a factory installed grounding conductor to assure safety from any static during refueling. Not a current return path for any specific component or circuit.
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Old 07-31-2021, 01:51 AM
REW REW is offline
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Mark,
Perfect explanation!!!
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