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  #1  
Old 12-27-2006, 04:35 PM
Gumbo Gumbo is offline
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Default Gun Dog, Game Dog, Water Dog, Top Dog, Family Dog

Why so many stinking books. I'm sure each has unique info, but how much is repeated? I already own Game Dog. Is it a waste of money to buy Water Dog or Gun Dog? I've been reading through Water Dog too, and it makes me mad that I should have to read both books, especially after picking up little bits of info not included in Game Dog.

Any other recommended reading? I was recommended "The Working Retreivers" by Tom Quinn.
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  #2  
Old 12-27-2006, 05:24 PM
AlW
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Default RE: Gun Dog, Game Dog, Water Dog, Top Dog, Family Dog

Becoming your dogs best friend, by the Monks of New Skete.

I thought was interesting reading, geared towards trainning your dog.

I believe they have a second book out also, but not sure.

Al
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  #3  
Old 12-27-2006, 07:00 PM
mac mac is offline
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Default RE: Gun Dog, Game Dog, Water Dog, Top Dog, Family Dog

It is one of those "do it yourself" things that depend so much on the dog's and the amateur trainer's abilities.

You need the basic book which is a good one, beyond that when your dog will do everything in the basic book you don't need anything more unless you are going to field trial and then you need a professional trainer to do well.

Good luck and a lot a patience. Have Chapter one mastered before you go on to Chapter 2 because every succeeding chapter depends on the one before it.
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  #4  
Old 12-28-2006, 01:19 AM
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Default RE: Gun Dog, Game Dog, Water Dog, Top Dog, Family Dog

>Why so many stinking books. I already own Game Dog. Is it a
>waste of money to buy Water Dog or Gun Dog?
>Any other recommended reading? I was recommended "The Working
>Retreivers" by Tom Quinn.

I am the party who recommended Quinn's book in a prior thread you started. I recommended it because it deals with "force training" for fetching, something Wolters only embraced late in his life. Most dog trainers, me included, think that is an extremely important topic. He eventually adopted it as well, but AFTER his books were already written.

I can speak about "Water Dog", as I also have it in addition to "Game Dog". "Water Dog" deals with dogs being specially trained for intensive water fowl hunting and field trials. It deals with teaching dogs to "line" -- take a travel line (under close control of the hunter) to and from a downed bird that the hunter saw but the dog did not, retrieving multiple birds in sequence while under control of the hunter who stays stationary in the blind, etc.

BUT, in "Water Dog" he does NOT deal with things that upland bird hunters need in their dog. These are topics like "quartering" a field (the hunter moves in a straight line across the field while the dog works left and right in front of him to cover all the field), having the dog quarter a field in front of a line of hunters, etc.

He wrote "Game Dog" some years after "Water Dog" to cover the broader more practical hunting topics "Water Dog" omits. "Game Dog" helps a hunter produce a dog with more rounded hunting skills.

If you use "Game Dog" and Quinn's book, and you do not intend to get serious about field trials and intensive waterfowl hunting, you don't need "Water Dog" nor "Gun Dog".
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  #5  
Old 12-28-2006, 01:45 AM
mac mac is offline
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Default RE: Gun Dog, Game Dog, Water Dog, Top Dog, Family Dog

Good advice. I havent read those for 30 years.

I force trained using a method from another writer and am not home right now to check and see which one, but it only took once.

There needs to be some advice on how to "read" your dog when he is hunting so you have an idea of the dog's relationship to the game and can anticipate where you should be looking and moving.
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  #6  
Old 12-28-2006, 09:49 AM
AlW
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Default RE: Gun Dog, Game Dog, Water Dog, Top Dog, Family Dog

Probably equally as important is understanding each dog just may be a bit different and being able to adapt.
Three English Springs I've owned were all trained and each was a bit different, 2 took to "force" well and it took very few times to get each to fetch, the third one would just lay on his back and cry, thought it was something I was doing, so we tried two professional trainers, both them failed to get the dog forced trained.

Ended up when he showed resistance to getting the bird, I'd turn my back on him, off he'd go...never did quite figure that one out...:)
btw he and the others all had obedience degree's on them.

I think that close to 90% of dog training, is training the trainer, and anybody can call them selfs a trainer, someone new to training a dog should be a bit cautious.
imho
Al
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  #7  
Old 12-28-2006, 10:03 AM
Gumbo Gumbo is offline
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Default RE: Gun Dog, Game Dog, Water Dog, Top Dog, Family Dog

I really appreciate the advice given here on dog training, as I'm scared I'm going to do something wrong or miss something and ruin my pup. He's 14 weeks now and is doing really well--on leash. Off leash or on my 25' leash, he won't sit on command (whistle). I'm not sure how to handle that one.

AIW: I do have the Monks of New Skeet's first book. I read it, then put it down and use Wolters as my text book for hunting training. Though I still think it's a good book.

I also agree on your training the trainer remark--that's what scares me most!

AT: I have the Water Dog DVD and it covers some force training methods. I still think Wolters books need to be combined. Seems like a racket having all those books. I'll just buy Quinn's book.
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  #8  
Old 12-28-2006, 10:24 AM
Smitty Smitty is offline
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Default RE: Gun Dog, Game Dog, Water Dog, Top Dog, Family Dog

We used Water Dog in training our lab 12 years ago based on advice from a local who breeds/trains labs. The one item you mentioned about waterfowl hunting (lining) was also extremely helpful in pheasant hunting (I don't hunt waterfowl at all) where we were in tall grass or had multiple birds down and she didn't see them drop. While it didn't include the quartering aspect while upland hunting, it seemed our dog just "had it" in that respect. Not sure if that's just a result of blood lines or we actually did something right without even knowing, but she'd work the field well whether 1 or 10 guys and seemed to adjust appropriately if there were multiple dogs working the group.

Interested in this discussion as I'll likely be looking for a new pup in the Spring, unfortunately had to put her down on December 1.. Best hunting dog I've ever had, and I can't even imagine hunting without one any more.
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  #9  
Old 12-28-2006, 11:04 AM
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Default RE: Gun Dog, Game Dog, Water Dog, Top Dog, Family Dog

>I really appreciate the advice given here on dog training, as
>I'm scared I'm going to do something wrong or miss something
>and ruin my pup. He's 14 weeks now and is doing really
>well--on leash. Off leash or on my 25' leash, he won't sit on
>command (whistle). I'm not sure how to handle that one.

>AT: I have the Water Dog DVD and it covers some force training
>methods. I still think Wolters books need to be combined.
>Seems like a racket having all those books. I'll just buy
>Quinn's book.


I was also afraid to do something wrong with my pup. It turns out that dogs are sturdier than I thought. It also turns out that their mom and dad put into them more hunting gene than I could ruin. Thanks, "mom and dad"!!

It helped my confidence a great deal to hook up with a group that trained dogs for field trials. I lucked out in that respect -- the man who sold me my first Lab was a field trial guy and they are always looking for training partners. He and I became friends when I asked him for training advice and he invited me into his group of friends. What a wonderful experience!! I sure learned a lot about dogs! If you can find a local group or club, join it, even for a few months. You won't believe what those folks can teach a dog to do and you won't believe how fast a dog can learn nor how MUCH they can learn. And you won't believe how eager they will be to help you when you run into problems.

The Water Dog DVD was not created by Wolters. It was created by a disciple of Wolters' after Wolters' death with permission from Wolter's widow. I have it also. It specifically notes Wolters' adoption of the force training technique later in Wolters' career. I haven't looked at it for a few years, but if you have it you shouldn't need to buy Quinn's book.

Yup, Wolters books could stand to be combined. He wrote a new book when he uncovered a few things he had not learned/communicated in his first book. Then he wrote a third book for the same reason he wrote the second -- he learned more and was getting lots of Frequently Asked Questions about his first and second books.

As far as your dog NOT obeying you off-leash, I can offer several points.

First point, the leash represents "control" to the dog. When the dog is on the leash, he knows you can force him to obey you. When he is off, he knows you have lost most of your control over him.

Second point, many of the field trialers that took me under their wing trained their dogs on leash. As the dog got better, the leash was made longer. Eventually it became a very long "leash" -- a 50 foot cotton rope (don't get nylon it will burn your legs if the dog pulls it across bare leg). Then over a period of sessions the trainer would let go the "leash/rope" but the dog didn't know it. Then, over more sessions the trainer would start shortening the rope. But the dog didn't know it. Over time, the "rope" was just a 2-foot section hanging from the dogs collar. All the dog knew, because it occurred over a long period of time, was that the trainer clipped the rope to his collar and that meant the trainer retained control.

Third point, nearly all the field trialers used electronic collars. I didn't like the collars at first, but as I realized the control it gave trainers when even experienced and very good dogs would misbehave, I became a believer. I put my dog's collar on my own arm and gave myself all the level of shocks before I ever put it on my dog. I wanted to know what I was doing to my dog. Now I don't hunt my dog without that collar on her. I don't want her following a pheasant across a highway in hot pursuit and getting killed. The collar provides me with peace of mind. It is my very mobile and very long "leash".

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  #10  
Old 12-28-2006, 11:48 AM
Smitty Smitty is offline
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Default RE: Gun Dog, Game Dog, Water Dog, Top Dog, Family Dog

For anyone who has seen both, would you recommend the Game Dog or Water Dog DVD for those only interested in upland hunting? After a bit of research it sounds like they may be very similar in the DVD versions.
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