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Old 07-03-2015, 02:29 PM
rksolid rksolid is offline
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Mandan ND
Posts: 222

Well Hollis most or your return comments are towards us who live among wind turbines. I know you didn't ask for death rays just showing some of the negatives. All these ideas you have come to a cost of tax payer since most rely on tax incentives. Like I said there's a lot of people that are for green energy and will to pay extra as long as it doesn't go ii their back yard or affect their activities.
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:45 PM
old boat
Posts: n/a

RK I think your missing part/s of the things from Hollis.
Note the comments about tax incentives and the tax payer paying for them. You are already paying a lot as well in taxes for gas,coal and nuclear. Its hidden in your income taxes. However people see tax incentives for wind and solar and will resent that because they perceive it more directly.

You are right about the not in my backyard thing though. However in traveling across this great land I see areas that are suitable for solar in which you could probably draw a circle 25 miles or more and not have anyone living within that circle. That's where super efficient power lines come in.

BTW I have solar on my roof, its leased. I split the profits with a company and it has cost me nothing to have it installed and maintained, I payed $4.23 for electricity last month despite pretty heavy use of AC, some clothes dryer use too. They covered my roof and my big garage,. Probably got some indirect benefit from taxpayers but not directly,..however the company that did the work probably did. Now if I waited, there has been news of much more efficient and higher output solar cells soon. I guess if they are good enough, this company might switch to them if they see it profitable. (?)

With this company I never get a check back from the power company like some do though,..Not a big concern for me now.
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Old 07-03-2015, 06:00 PM
explaination of transmission
Posts: n/a
Default perhaps this can help

from power company


Power generated in power stations pass through large and complex networks like transformers, overhead lines, cables and other equipment and reaches at the end users. It is fact that the unit of electric energy generated by Power Station does not match with the units distributed to the consumers. Some percentage of the units is lost in the distribution network.

This difference in the generated and distributed units is known as Transmission and Distribution loss. Transmission and Distribution loss are the amounts that are not paid for by users.

T&D Losses = (Energy Input to feeder(Kwh) – Billed Energy to Consumer(Kwh)) / Energy Input kwh x 100
Distribution Sector considered as the weakest link in the entire power sector. Transmission Losses is approximate 17% while Distribution Losses is approximate 50%.

There are two types of Transmission and Distribution Losses:

Technical Losses
Non Technical Losses (Commercial Losses)

1. Technical Losses

The technical losses are due to energy dissipated in the conductors, equipment used for transmission line, transformer, subtransmission line and distribution line and magnetic losses in transformers.

Technical losses are normally 22.5%, and directly depend on the network characteristics and the mode of operation.

The major amount of losses in a power system is in primary and secondary distribution lines. While transmission and sub-transmission lines account for only about 30% of the total losses. Therefore the primary and secondary distribution systems must be properly planned to ensure within limits.

The unexpected load increase was reflected in the increase of technical losses above the normal level
Losses are inherent to the distribution of electricity and cannot be eliminated.

There are two Type of Technical Losses.

1. Permanent / Fixed Technical losses

Fixed losses do not vary according to current. These losses take the form of heat and noise and occur as long as a transformer is energized
Between 1/4 and 1/3 of technical losses on distribution networks are fixed losses. Fixed losses on a network can be influenced in the ways set out below
Corona Losses
Leakage Current Losses
Dielectric Losses
Open-circuit Losses
Losses caused by continuous load of measuring elements
Losses caused by continuous load of control elements

2. Variable Technical losses

Variable losses vary with the amount of electricity distributed and are, more precisely, proportional to the square of the current. Consequently, a 1% increase in current leads to an increase in losses of more than 1%.

Between 2/3 and 3/4 of technical (or physical) losses on distribution networks are variable Losses.
By increasing the cross sectional area of lines and cables for a given load, losses will fall. This leads to a direct trade-off between cost of losses and cost of capital expenditure. It has been suggested that optimal average utilization rate on a distribution network that considers the cost of losses in its design could be as low as 30 per cent.
Joule losses in lines in each voltage level
Impedance losses
Losses caused by contact resistance.

Main Reasons for Technical Losses
1. Lengthy Distribution lines

In practically 11 KV and 415 volts lines, in rural areas are extended over long distances to feed loads scattered over large areas. Thus the primary and secondary distributions lines in rural areas are largely radial laid usually extend over long distances.

This results in high line resistance and therefore high I2R losses in the line.

Haphazard growths of sub-transmission and distribution system in to new areas.
Large scale rural electrification through long 11kV and LT lines.

2. Inadequate Size of Conductors of Distribution lines

The size of the conductors should be selected on the basis of KVA x KM capacity of standard conductor for a required voltage regulation, but rural loads are usually scattered and generally fed by radial feeders. The conductor size of these feeders should be adequate.
3. Installation of Distribution transformers away from load centers

Distribution Transformers are not located at Load center on the Secondary Distribution System.

In most of case Distribution Transformers are not located centrally with respect to consumers. Consequently, the farthest consumers obtain an extremity low voltage even though a good voltage levels maintained at the transformers secondary.

This again leads to higher line losses. (The reason for the line losses increasing as a result of decreased voltage at the consumers end therefore in order to reduce the voltage drop in the line to the farthest consumers, the distribution transformer should be located at the load center to keep voltage drop within permissible limits.)
4. Low Power Factor of Primary and secondary distribution system

In most LT distribution circuits normally the Power Factor ranges from 0.65 to 0.75. A low Power Factor contributes towards high distribution losses.

For a given load, if the Power Factor is low, the current drawn in high And the losses proportional to square of the current will be more. Thus, line losses owing to the poor PF can be reduced by improving the Power Factor.

This can be done by application of shunt capacitors.

Shunt capacitors can be connected either in secondary side (11 KV side) of the 33/11 KV power transformers or at various point of Distribution Line.
The optimum rating of capacitor banks for a distribution system is 2/3rd of the average KVAR requirement of that distribution system.
The vantage point is at 2/3rd the length of the main distributor from the transformer.
A more appropriate manner of improving this PF of the distribution system and thereby reduce the line losses is to connect capacitors across the terminals of the consumers having inductive loads.
By connecting the capacitors across individual loads, the line loss is reduced from 4 to 9% depending upon the extent of PF improvement.

5. Bad Workmanship

Bad Workmanship contributes significantly role towards increasing distribution losses.

Joints are a source of power loss. Therefore the number of joints should be kept to a minimum. Proper jointing techniques should be used to ensure firm connections.
Connections to the transformer bushing-stem, drop out fuse, isolator, and LT switch etc. should be periodically inspected and proper pressure maintained to avoid sparking and heating of contacts.

Replacement of deteriorated wires and services should also be made timely to avoid any cause of leaking and loss of power.
6. Feeder Phase Current and Load Balancing>

One of the easiest loss savings of the distribution system is balancing current along three-phase circuits.

Feeder phase balancing also tends to balance voltage drop among phases giving three-phase customers less voltage unbalance. Amperage magnitude at the substation doesn’t guarantee load is balanced throughout the feeder length.

Feeder phase unbalance may vary during the day and with different seasons. Feeders are usually considered “balanced” when phase current magnitudes are within 10.Similarly, balancing load among distribution feeders will also lower losses assuming similar conductor resistance. This may require installing additional switches between feeders to allow for appropriate load transfer.

Bifurcation of feeders according to Voltage regulation and Load.
7. Load Factor Effect on Losses

Power consumption of customer varies throughout the day and over seasons.

Residential customers generally draw their highest power demand in the evening hours. Same commercial customer load generally peak in the early afternoon. Because current level (hence, load) is the primary driver in distribution power losses, keeping power consumption more level throughout the day will lower peak power loss and overall energy losses.
Load variation is Called load factor and It varies from 0 to 1.

Load Factor = Average load in a specified time period / peak load during that time period.

For example, for 30 days month (720 hours) peak Load of the feeder is 10 MW. If the feeder supplied a total energy of 5,000 MWH, the load factor for that month is (5,000 MWh)/ (10MW x 720) =0.69.

Lower power and energy losses are reduced by raising the load factor, which, evens out feeder demand variation throughout the feeder.

The load factor has been increase by offering customers “time-of-use” rates. Companies use pricing power to influence consumers to shift electric-intensive activities during off-peak times (such as, electric water and space heating, air conditioning, irrigating, and pool filter pumping).
With financial incentives, some electric customers are also allowing utilities to interrupt large electric loads remotely through radio frequency or power line carrier during periods of peak use. Utilities can try to design in higher load factors by running the same feeders through residential and commercial areas.
8. Transformer Sizing and Selection

Distribution transformers use copper conductor windings to induce a magnetic field into a grain-oriented silicon steel core. Therefore, transformers have both load losses and no-load core losses.

Transformer copper losses vary with load based on the resistive power loss equation (P loss = I2R). For some utilities, economic transformer loading means loading distribution transformers to capacity-or slightly above capacity for a short time-in an effort to minimize capital costs and still maintain long transformer life.

However, since peak generation is usually the most expensive, total cost of ownership (TCO) studies should take into account the cost of peak transformer losses. Increasing distribution transformer capacity during peak by one size will often result in lower total peak power dissipation-more so if it is overloaded.

Transformer no-load excitation loss (iron loss) occurs from a changing magnetic field in the transformer core whenever it is energized. Core loss varies slightly with voltage but is essentially considered constant. Fixed iron loss depends on transformer core design and steel lamination molecular structure. Improved manufacturing of steel cores and introducing amorphous metals (such as metallic glass) have reduced core losses.
9. Balancing 3 phase loads

Balancing 3-phase loads periodically throughout a network can reduce losses significantly. It can be done relatively easily on overhead networks and consequently offers considerable scope for cost effective loss reduction, given suitable incentives.
10. Switching off transformers

One method of reducing fixed losses is to switch off transformers in periods of low demand. If two transformers of a certain size are required at a substation during peak periods, only one might be required during times of low demand so that the other transformer might be switched off in order to reduce fixed losses.

This will produce some offsetting increase in variable losses and might affect security and quality of supply as well as the operational condition of the transformer itself. However, these trade-offs will not be explored and optimized unless the cost of losses are taken into account.
11. Other Reasons for Technical Losses

Unequal load distribution among three phases in L.T system causing high neutral currents.
leaking and loss of power
Over loading of lines.
Abnormal operating conditions at which power and distribution transformers are operated
Low voltages at consumer terminals causing higher drawl of currents by inductive loads.
Poor quality of equipment used in agricultural pumping in rural areas, cooler air-conditioners and industrial loads in urban areas.
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Old 07-03-2015, 08:50 PM
Pig Doc Pig Doc is offline
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,077

As far as Iowa covered with 50 square miles of wind turbines. I'm going to have to doubt that. even in California know for its wind farms they don't cover near that. Now you are somewhat talking apples and oranges,.yes Iowa is pretty windy, (I spent 5 years there between Davenport and Iowa city on the plains,.. ) But it is not nearly as high or consistent as parts of the Dakotas.
Iowa is 3rd in the nation in wind power generation with 5,708 MW of capacity, just slightly behind CA with 5,914 MW. Planned new construction in IA will put them ahead of CA within the next year. Texas is number 1 with over 14,000 MW of capacity.

In open, flat terrain, a utility-scale wind plant will require about 50 acres per megawatt of installed capacity. If you take the 5,708 MW generated in IA times 50 acres per MW that works out to about 285,000 acres or 445 square miles.

I'm on board with the spirit of Hollis's posts but his "facts" are a mess.
I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us like equals. - Winston Churchill
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Old 07-04-2015, 12:07 AM
new technologies
Posts: n/a

I saw the Modern Marvels show too and remember that being said about the 50 square miles. They were talking about big stacked units that also used something like Bernoulli effect coupled with vortex something whatever, I didn't fully understand it but they were nothing like current designs. I don't know if it can be accomplished but it was interesting and hopefully technology can get closer.
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Old 07-04-2015, 07:32 AM
petewv petewv is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 312
Default Wind Machine Construction

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Old 07-04-2015, 08:13 AM
new technologies
Posts: n/a

Yes new designs are still in its infancy, but think about how fast air planes and computers evolved when it was perceived as a need...

I believe it was these or something close to it that were stacked to the height of something like a 40 story building



Here is design that is made near here and as far as I know it is being used by one business and they are very happy with it

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Old 07-04-2015, 08:22 AM
new technologies
Posts: n/a
Default oops wrong link associated

Here is design that is made near here and as far as I know from a local newspaper article it is being used by one business and they are very happy with it

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Old 07-04-2015, 08:30 AM
3M TA3 3M TA3 is offline
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Burt Lake
Posts: 2,732

Many (most) of the wind turbines you see now days going up in the mid west and plains states are in the 3 to 5 Megawatt range. That's at maximum efficiency and to get maximum efficiency requires around 45 to 55 MPH winds. Halving the wind reduces efficiency by 8 times, so with winds of 25 to 30 MPH your 3 Megawatt Turbine is now only capable of putting out around 366 Kilowatts. Now we have to figure in maintenance down time. We also have to figure in on demand needs because these monsters feed the grid directly, no batteries to store energy. Then we also have to figure in the cost of running the legacy equipment in standby mode just in case the wind wants to quit blowing, or demand goes up or down. Remember, we want power when we need it, whether the wind blows or not. It is for some of these reasons you see on many windy days that the turbines are not turning at all. Cost vs. benefits, that's all.

One other note. Of all the wind turbines in the country, they're only running as a whole at about 17 to 20 % efficiency. And the rate isn't much better in European nations either.

So it seems, the best efficiency gains will be made in delivery of power, not the making of power.
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Old 07-04-2015, 11:06 AM
Laker3588 Laker3588 is offline
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: .
Posts: 11
Default new windmill facts


You don't have one thing right. The vast majority of turbines going into service now are 2 MW and 3 MW platforms. And no, the wind doesn't need to blow 50mph to be at capacity. More like 25-30mph depending on air density and swept area of rotor. Cutting the wind in half does not reduce power generation output 8 times in a turbine. Do a little research its not real hard to find power curves for turbines. If I owned a wind farm with a capacity factor of 17%-20% the OEM crew would be out the door. Where I live if the CF isn't between 40%-45% depending on the wind resourse. Someone is doing a very poor job of taking care of turbines.
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