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  #1  
Old 06-30-2015, 04:31 PM
Hollis Hollis is offline
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Default new windmill

Interestig story on a new design.

A few years ago a couple of MIT engineers calculated that 50 square miles of I believe it was North Dakota could run the entire US with using wind power. This was with old technology windmills. However they said that you needed to upgrade the transmission lines to ceramic lines as 50% of the power is lost in current technology lines. (Why not do 100 square miles?) Really a dot on the map in most states)

Anyway yes, there ARE ways of storing the energy now and more coming when the wind doesn't blow (however I understand that in certain parts that is really not often)

BTW another group from Cal Tech said about 50 square miles of Az or NM could do the same with solar energy.

Even with current non wind or solar power plants a huge amount of power is lost in transmission. The projections of doing the BIG lines with more efficient lines will cost billions but we spend such billions on things like the Boston's big dig (not that its not fully worthless but WAY over what it was going to cost, and what about that new fighter jet that some are saying is a big disappointment. (I DON'T know,..lets not get into that,..I'm just reporting what I read, 400 billion so far and 1.5 trillion by pentagon estimates over the next 50 years. )

Of course who knows how much cost over runs would the hi tech transmission lines would cost but I saw a project of 75 billion dollars.

here is the link to one new windmill design,..


http://www.kare11.com/story/news/loc...aign=kare/home
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Old 06-30-2015, 04:52 PM
SGPopp SGPopp is offline
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First, they're wind turbines, not wind mills.

It's difficult for the same reason other green energies like nuclear don't succeed on a grand scale. Everyone thinks it's a great idea until they find out it's going to be in their back yard. Then they don't like it so much.
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Old 06-30-2015, 05:30 PM
Ndstallmann Ndstallmann is online now
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Electrical energy storage is not here yet. The most economical storage is lead acid battery. But they're not very green so what you gain in one hand you throw away with the other!
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Old 06-30-2015, 07:06 PM
CKM CKM is offline
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Think Solyndra. Also, these wind turbines are highly unreliable. I live in ND and drive by a massive field of them quite frequently. There are 20% down on a regular basis. They only exist because of subsidies.
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Old 07-01-2015, 05:43 AM
old boat
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" Electrical energy storage is not here yet. The most economical storage is lead acid battery. But they're not very green so what you gain in one hand you throw away with the other!
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Need to research this again, there are a number of ways you can store this energy now,..just one is pumped air into the ground, it seems far out but I've seen it done and the power is amazing! Also compressed air cars. They have to play with it but its amazing what compressed air will do. Understand that you need extra power to compress it but we are talking here about extra power. Then there are several other ways, we have such of one where they pump water up a mountain at night when there is extra power from a conventional power plant and it runs turbines during the day when they need more power. Then there is a new battery that can store extra power from power plants, These occupy several acres and are going to be X stories high but can store huge amounts of power. There are more things on the drawing boards, I think some are feasible.Its a technology in its infancy.
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Old 07-01-2015, 09:10 AM
BCLII BCLII is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGPopp View Post

It's difficult for the same reason other green energies like nuclear don't succeed on a grand scale. Everyone thinks it's a great idea until they find out it's going to be in their back yard. Then they don't like it so much.
isn't this the truth!
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Old 07-01-2015, 09:14 AM
U D U D is offline
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Can you provide a link to these MIT and Cal Tech studies?? I believe them to be Urban Legends.
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Old 07-01-2015, 10:08 AM
MK cant log in
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollis View Post



... However they said that you needed to upgrade the transmission lines to ceramic lines as 50% of the power is lost in current technology lines.

When one "fact" such as the above is so obviously false, one has to question the entire article.

In the US the average transmission loss is abut 5-6%. If it was anywhere near 50% power lines would glow red hot and melt.

Also, ceramic is one of the best insulators known to man. It would be interesting to see them make a super-conducting power line out of it.
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Old 07-01-2015, 10:29 AM
Steeleyes Steeleyes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MK cant log in View Post
When one "fact" such as the above is so obviously false, one has to question the entire article.

In the US the average transmission loss is abut 5-6%. If it was anywhere near 50% power lines would glow red hot and melt.

Also, ceramic is one of the best insulators known to man. It would be interesting to see them make a super-conducting power line out of it.
Dang it, you beat me to it. Ceramic transmission line, lol.
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Old 07-01-2015, 03:07 PM
Hollis Hollis is offline
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Default line losses and ceramics

We are not talking about resistance of over heated lines,

From The Engineering portal site:


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Home Technical Articles Transmission and Distribution Total Losses in Power Distribution and Transmission Lines (1)



Power generated in power stations pass through large and complex networks like transformers, overhead lines, cables and other equipment and reaches at the end users. It is fact that the unit of electric energy generated by Power Station does not match with the units distributed to the consumers. Some percentage of the units is lost in the distribution network.

This difference in the generated and distributed units is known as Transmission and Distribution loss. Transmission and Distribution loss are the amounts that are not paid for by users.

T&D Losses = (Energy Input to feeder(Kwh) Billed Energy to Consumer(Kwh)) / Energy Input kwh x 100
Distribution Sector considered as the weakest link in the entire power sector. Transmission Losses is approximate 17% while Distribution Losses is approximate 50%.


American Superconductor, which makes superconductor wires, has developed a system to use direct current superconductor cables, which greatly reduce loss of energy during transmission. It's a way to beef up the U.S. power grid and bypass many contentious problems over siting overhead lines, according to the company.

Typically, plans to modernize the grid and meet growing demand for electricity involve adding bulk transmission lines. Also, more lines are needed to transport large amounts of solar and wind power from the west and Midwest to the load centers along the coasts. T. Boone Pickens last week said he is seeking new locations for a massive wind farm in Texas because the transmission lines are not available in panhandle region.
Underground direct current superconductor wires--a viable alternative to overhead transmission lines? American Superconductor

But laying new transmission lines, in addition to be expensive, is meeting opposition from many quarters and brings up thorny debates over federal versus states rights in siting. In one case, a group of environmental advocacy groups is suing government agencies because the proposal to build transmissions lines through public lands is not well suited for transporting solar and wind power.

American Superconductor argues that superconductors get around many of those siting issues because cables can be placed underground on existing rights of way, company representative Jason Fredette said on Friday. Direct current superconductor cables are also far more efficient because there is minimal loss during transmission--only three percent.
Total Losses in Power Distribution and Transmission Lines (1)
Posted Aug 19 2013 by jiguparmar in Transmission and Distribution with 27 Comments
Total Losses in Power Distribution and Transmission Lines (1)

perhaps reading this might help.

https://books.google.com/books?id=6N...0lines&f=false

Scientists at the University of Cambridge have for the first time identified a key component to unravelling the mystery of room temperature superconductivity, according to a paper published in the journal Nature.

The quest for room temperature superconductivity has gripped physics researchers since they saw the possibility more than two decades ago. Materials that could potentially transport electricity with zero loss (resistance) at room temperature hold vast potential; some of the possible applications include a magnetically levitated superfast train, efficient magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), lossless power generators, transformers, and transmission lines, powerful supercomputers, etc.

Unfortunately, scientists have been unable to decipher how copper oxide materials superconduct at extremely cold temperatures (such as that of liquid nitrogen), much less design materials that can superconduct at higher temperatures.

Materials that are known to superconduct at the highest temperatures are, unexpectedly, ceramic insulators that behave as magnets before 'doping' (the method of introducing impurities to a semiconductor to modify its electrical properties). Upon doping charge carriers (holes or electrons) into these parent magnetic insulators, they mysteriously begin to superconduct, i.e. the doped carriers form pairs that carry electricity without loss.

The essential conundrum facing researchers in this area has been: how does a magnet that cannot transport electricity transform into a superconductor that is a perfect conductor of electricity? The Cambridge team have made a significant advance in answering this question.
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