Storing boats with lithium batteries in cold climates

[gbin]

Originally Posted by Ozark Bob

So, What have you gleaned from that? I am seeing a CYA and the hint he thought the batteries are the same, but the language was different? I also heard no statement about any warrantee issues. I guess I am just not able to decipher the corporate lingo. Bob

I didn't get a CYA vibe from the fellow; seemed like he was talking to me pretty straight even when it wasn't to RELiON's advantage. (For example, before I even had a chance to ask, he volunteered that Tracker batteries are indeed rebranded RELiONs and that I'd save money by buying Tracker. He also said that while it's true the warranty is longer on the RELiONs - 10 years versus 5 for the Trackers - the prorating that would occur after 5 years makes RELiON's longer warranty less valuable than it appears.)

I think that either 1) RELiON and Battle Born batteries are essentially the same but RELiON is motivated more strongly by avoiding unhappy customers whereas Battle Born is motivated more strongly by maximizing sales, or 2) Battle Born's in-battery computers are better made with respect to handling cold temperatures. No way to tell between these from my conversation with him. We didn't actually discuss warranty issues that might result or have resulted from subjecting these batteries to frigid temperatures. That would have been a good thing for me to ask about, and I'm sorry I didn't.

For my part, if I make the switch to LiFePO4 (I'm still mulling it over), I guess that for now at least I'll plan to take the batteries out of the boat when it comes time to store it for the winter.

We also talked a bit about RELiON's heated batteries - which pertains to their use and charging, not their storage - and the fact that they can't be connected in series. He said that they're actively working on that and plan to offer their solution soon.

Gerry

[jjy]

Originally Posted by gbin

I didn't get a CYA vibe from the fellow; seemed like he was talking to me pretty straight even when it wasn't to RELiON's advantage. (For example, before I even had a chance to ask, he volunteered that Tracker batteries are indeed rebranded RELiONs and that I'd save money by buying Tracker. He also said that while it's true the warranty is longer on the RELiONs - 10 years versus 5 for the Trackers - the prorating that would occur after 5 years makes RELiON's longer warranty less valuable than it appears.)

I think that either 1) RELiON and Battle Born batteries are essentially the same but RELiON is motivated more strongly by avoiding unhappy customers whereas Battle Born is motivated more strongly by maximizing sales, or 2) Battle Born's in-battery computers are better made with respect to handling cold temperatures. No way to tell between these from my conversation with him. We didn't actually discuss warranty issues that might result or have resulted from subjecting these batteries to frigid temperatures. That would have been a good thing for me to ask about, and I'm sorry I didn't.

For my part, if I make the switch to LiFePO4 (I'm still mulling it over), I guess that for now at least I'll plan to take the batteries out of the boat when it comes time to store it for the winter.

We also talked a bit about RELiON's heated batteries - which pertains to their use and charging, not their storage - and the fact that they can't be connected in series. He said that they're actively working on that and plan to offer their solution soon.

Gerry

The components on RELiON's BMS are some of the same components used in many devices such as computers in your car. The RELiON guy was probably just restating what their specs say and they are protecting themselves from people charging the batteries below 26F. A BMS uses some pretty basic electronic components. I am a hardware engineer and deal with electrical components everyday. Most electrical components are rated down to -55C. I'd skip RELiON and chose a different manufacture. There are many good ones out there much cheaper with low temp. cut off protection.

[gbin]

Originally Posted by jjy

The components on RELiON's BMS are some of the same components used in many devices such as computers in your car. The RELiON guy was probably just restating what their specs say and they are protecting themselves from people charging the batteries below 26F. A BMS uses some pretty basic electronic components. I am a hardware engineer and deal with electrical components everyday. Most electrical components are rated down to -55C. I'd skip RELiON and chose a different manufacture. There are many good ones out there much cheaper with low temp. cut off protection.

Nope.

As I said (twice ) before, 23ºF is RELiON's/Tracker's minimum storage temperature, not their minimum charge (or discharge) temperature.

And I was speaking with a fellow in technical support, not sales, who clearly knew his stuff and wasn't just reciting their advertised specs.

That said, I can believe what you say about the BMS in these and other lithium batteries actually being much more capable of handling frigid temperatures than that minimum storage temperature indicates. Probably RELiON is just being overly conservative to head off the possibility of unhappy customers, as I mentioned; some companies are simply much more risk averse than others. But maybe not. I'd need technical information not currently available to me to decide how seriously to take it.

I see no reason to disregard RELiON/Tracker for this, in any event. Others might not be, but I'm OK with removing the batteries when I store the boat for the winter. And if I ever become decrepit enough with age that I'm not OK with it anymore, I'll buy whatever heating pad(s) I need.

IF I decide to make the switch to lithium at all, that is. Still thinking about that.

Gerry

P.S. I've actually had numerous problems with the computer in my truck (2016 Ford F-150) during the coldest parts of our winters, every year since I bought it new.

[jjy]

Check out Rebel lithium batteries. Prices were good enough to make me take lithium jump. Their service is also very good. Responded quickly to all my questions. I'm running their 50ah batteries. Been very happy so far.

[muskyed]

A couple of the manufactures now offer built in heaters for charging in cold weather. One of them is pretty slick in that when pluging in the charger, if it is too cold, it will automatically turn on the heater till the battery temp comes up to a safe level to charge. Also as to cold storage, hard to believe that is much of an issue as Rangers fisherman series now come standard with lithium trolling mtr batteries, and I seriously doubt they are going to say you have to take them out when it is cold out. I hope to make the switch soon, but am waiting for this heater technology to sort out. Heating blankets are old technology. In tests where they broke down some of the popular batteries to see how they were constructed, Battle born, and Relion I think, had good reviews for their quality of construction. Seems to be advancements all the time now in this stuff.

[David Anderson]

From Solacity Website:
Storing Lithium-Ion Batteries
The very low self-discharge rate makes it easy to store LFP batteries, even for longer periods. It is no problem to put a lithium-ion battery away for a year, just make sure there is some charge in it before placing it in storage. Something between 50% – 60% is ideal, that will give the battery a very long time before self-discharge brings the Voltage close to the danger point.

Storing batteries below freezing is fine, even at very low temperatures such as -40 Centigrade (that is the same in Fahrenheit), or even less! The electrolyte in LiFePO4 cells does not contain any water, so even when it freezes (which happens around -40 Centigrade, depending on the particular formulation) it does not expand, and does not damage the cells. Just let the battery warm up a bit before you start discharging it again, which is OK at -20 Centigrade and above. You will see an apparent loss of capacity when discharging at below-freezing temperatures that reverses when the battery gets above freezing, and there is a slightly accelerated effect on aging. Storing them at low temperatures is certainly much better than storage at high temperatures: Calendar aging slows down dramatically at low temperatures. Try to avoid storing them at 45 Centigrade and above, and try to avoid storing them completely full if possible (or nearly empty).

If you need to store batteries for longer periods, be sure to simply disconnect all wires from them. That way there can not be any stray loads that slowly discharge the batteries.

I have Ionic LFP batterries and will leave them in the boat over the winter. My concerns are with the current heat wave, not the coming winter.

[83cy]

Confusion runs amok.... my Ranger dealer says to take the lithium batteries out for winter to protect them from damage, temps dip to minus 25-30 F here in Minneapolis, so they are going to take them out and I will store in my basement over winter. I miss my old lead batteries, never took them out or disconnected them during winter storage. I kept the on board charger plugged in all summer when I wasn't using the boat and I got 8 years out of them. Who knows. I know I dread trying to figure out how to hook 3 batteries back up next spring!

[Ozark Bob]

Originally Posted by 83cy

Confusion runs amok.... my Ranger dealer says to take the lithium batteries out for winter to protect them from damage, temps dip to minus 25-30 F here in Minneapolis, so they are going to take them out and I will store in my basement over winter. I miss my old lead batteries, never took them out or disconnected them during winter storage. I kept the on board charger plugged in all summer when I wasn't using the boat and I got 8 years out of them. Who knows. I know I dread trying to figure out how to hook 3 batteries back up next spring!

If you are concerned talk to the people who made and warranty them. Many dealers still do not know much and don't want to learn anything new. JMO Bob

[last chance]

Originally Posted by gbin

Recent discussions here and elsewhere have prompted me to study up a bit on lithium batteries for boats. As on so many subjects, I've found some of the best explanations of various things right here at WC!

I've been left with a few questions, though, particularly in the area of storing boats with lithium batteries in cold climates, so I thought I'd see if devoting a thread here to that specific area would help improve my education. Many thanks in advance to all who respond with knowledge/experience and on topic!

Background: Here are the minimum storage temperatures - mind you, I'm NOT talking about minimum discharge or charge temperatures - I found stipulated by a few of the more frequently discussed lithium boat battery manufacturers:

• Battle Born -10°F

• RELiON/Tracker 23ºF

• Ionic not specified anywhere that I can find

My questions:

- What does it really mean to say that one of these batteries has a minimum storage temperature? That is, what happens to the battery if it's stored below that temperature, and in principle how serious a matter could it be (other than possibly cracking the battery's housing if it gets cold enough)?

- Why does the minimum storage temperature vary so much from one manufacturer to another?

- In practice rather than principle, what are folks who live in cold climates and have switched to lithiums to power their trolling motors and maybe their main motor doing to store their batteries in the winter? Just leaving them in the boat with everything shut down and not worrying about it, so far with no apparent harmful effect? Taking the batteries out in the fall so they can be kept someplace at least somewhat climate-controlled for the winter before reinstalling them in the spring? Or ...?

In my case, I use an unheated barn for winter storage of my boat, and there's definitely plenty of time out there every year below 23°F; there are always at least occasional days, sometimes spans of days, below -10°F, too. Right now I have all lead-acid batteries which I leave in place and on a charger, but it's not at all clear to me what I would best do if I switch to LiFePO. And I'd like to make that switch at some point, maybe soon, so these aren't just academic questions for me.

Thanks again!

Gerry

when I talked to one company that has lithium batteries by email I asked about which battery would be best used as my starting battery in my boat and charged with the alternator. his reply was none of their batteries could be used as a starting battery. go figure! I don't use a trolling motor but wanted to switch my boat over to lithium batteries.

Originally Posted by last chance

when I talked to one company that has lithium batteries by email I asked about which battery would be best used as my starting battery in my boat and charged with the alternator. his reply was none of their batteries could be used as a starting battery. go figure! I don't use a trolling motor but wanted to switch my boat over to lithium batteries.

Not the case. Most of them now make cranking batteries. They will be the 120 amp hour version that say they can handle it. They will also be the most expensive model that all the company's make though.