Bird Problems

Have 3 Helix models on my boat a 10 and two 7's. On big engine startup (optimax) the model consistently 7's commonly lock up and go to a very light white screen. The starting battery is a group 31 with over 1000 cranking amps and is brand new. I know the Optimax draws a bit more than most on startup but it would seem that any marine electronics should allow for that. I added a couple Lowrance 9's that I already had and have no issues with them...just the stupid Birds.

Thoughts...fixes ?

Originally Posted by wstdeep

Have 3 Helix models on my boat a 10 and two 7's. On big engine startup (optimax) the model consistently 7's commonly lock up and go to a very light white screen. The starting battery is a group 31 with over 1000 cranking amps and is brand new. I know the Optimax draws a bit more than most on startup but it would seem that any marine electronics should allow for that. I added a couple Lowrance 9's that I already had and have no issues with them...just the stupid Birds.

Thoughts...fixes ?

Additionally the 10 shuts completely off about 90 percent of the time on starting the big motor. Stupid.

[B-man]

How are they wired?

To your panel?

Directly to the battery?

The common culprit is undersized wiring.

[Custom Eyes]

Second vote for wiring. Undersized, corroded somewhere, or a crappy connection somewhere. Easy way to tell is to compare the voltage displayed on your units compared to the voltage reading at the battery. Most likely, you'll see the units having the problem are reading a volt or two less than at the battery.

[REW]

Wst deep,

Do yourself a favor and do some trouble shooting.

Take your voltmeter and check the following.

1. Check the voltage directly on the battery that you are using to start your motor and power your graph in question.

Check it first, when the motor is off and all accessories are off.

2. Then, while holding the voltmeter on the starting battery start the big motor and note the battery voltage when cranking the motor, but before the motor starts.

3. Go to your unit in question on the console with the motor turned off and turn on the unit, and using the voltmeter built into the graph, check the voltage that is getting to the unit with the motor shut off. Then, start the motor and after the motor starts turn on the graph and check the voltage on the graph with the motor running.

Then, with the motor turned off, go to the wiring of your unit in question and measure the voltage at the end of the power lead, where the unit is connected to boat power. You are first verifying that the voltmeter that you are using and the voltmeter built into the unit in question read the same voltage.

Now, with the voltmeter on the units power lead at the point where the units power lead connects to boat power, have someone crank the main motor without letting it start and see what the voltage is at the time of the motor cranking and the unit in question turned on.

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So, now you should have a picture of any voltage drops in your boats wiring from the main starting battery up to and including the graph in question.

Something that frequently happens over time is that connections and wires can become corroded and cause a voltage drop.

So, just for some examples:
A fully charged battery that is just sitting in the boat will read at least 12.6 volts, but may often be as high as 13-14 volts on a very fresh charge.

So, lets say that the voltage at the battery terminals themselves with the motor off, reads 13 volts. Now, what is the voltage right at the unit in question - first at the power connection to the boat, and also what is indicated on the graph when it is turned on.

I suspect that you may find your problem right here. With boat wiring that is sound, correctly sized and in good condition, you should have no more than about a .1 or a .2 voltage drop from the starting battery to your graph screen.

Do you have any difference on the voltage reading on your graph screen and your voltmeter?
If so, you need to know the difference, so that you can continue your trouble shooting.

Now, when you crank your starting battery, what voltage do you read right at the battery?
How much voltage drop do you get when measuring the voltage on the starting battery terminals, when cranking the battery. Under normal conditions, the voltage should not fall below 10 volts.

One more check to make and that is to check the voltage on the motor terminal wires right at the battery, but not the battery terminals themselves. If you have a loose terminal or corroded terminal, you can get a voltage drop from the battery itself to your motor terminals. If this is the case, remove the motor power wires from the battery. Clean the battery terminals, clean the motor wire battery connections, replace the wires back on the battery and be sure that the connections and nuts are tight and remeasure the voltage on the motor battery terminals.

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So, now lets say that when cranking the motor, that your battery voltage falls to 10 volts. If your battery voltage falls to 10 volts, what is the voltage at the power bus that the graph connects to in the boat. If your wiring is sound and not corroded, the voltage on the power bus to your graph should also be 10 volts when cranking the battery. If it is not; then you need to find the location in your boats wiring that is causing the voltage drop. Often, there is another spot that makes a power connection as in the case of a circuit breaker to the power bus, or another connector in the power bus system. If, for example you find that your graph voltage drops to under 7 volts when cranking you will almost always have the graph shut down when starting the main motor.

Assuming that a voltage drop in your wiring is your problem, you have to search out the spot, spots, or components that are causing the voltage drop and repair or replace the defect.

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If you find that you have the same voltage drop at the graph as at the battery and it is below 8 volts, you need to install a different fully charged battery in the starting battery location and repeat the test.

Even a new battery can have a defect in the form of a defective cell, that will drop the voltage by 2.2 volts. Or, two defective cells could drop the voltage by 4.4 volts.

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Do some voltage tests and let us know what you find.

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Finally, if you find that you are getting only a small voltage drop on the batteries and the same drop at the cells, you can place one of your trolling motor batteries in parallel to your starting battery. This would essentially give you about a 1500-1800 cca battery and should eliminate any significant voltage drops during starts of the main motor.

Good luck

[hawg]

Great advice above. Bass Boat Central is really the place if that REW post does not fix it. They have dedicated threads and pointers for individual brands. Many WC members are there also.

[DW]

I ranted about the issue on a thread about a year ago. The Helix is simply not designed properly to withstand the momentary loss of voltage during cranking. My Helix 7 draws only 0.8 amps yet shut down every time. Since sonars are frequently wired to the cranking battery they should have 25 cents worth of added internal capacitance.

My boat wiring checked out ok so upgrading wiring wouldn’t help. I replaced a 24 AGM with a 31 AGM with 800 CCA and 205 RC and that fixed the problem. If I had known the Helix shut down during cranking and I would have to buy a new battery I wouldn’t have bought the Helix. There are better options.

I considered installing a small capacitor, or a small battery under the console wired in parallel as an option. You may have to go that route since you are running three sonars, but check your wiring.

[REW]

I just went to both the Lowrance as well as the Hummingbird web sites.

I skimmed through several of the latest manuals for depth finders for each brand and checked the voltage specifications for each brand.

Both brands have similar voltage specifications for their units.
Lowrance typically states a supply voltage of 10-17 volts.
Hummingbird typically states a supply voltage of 10-20 volts.

So, for continued depth finder operation when starting a heavy load like a main motor, it is incumbent on the operator of the boat to insure that each of the depth finders have a minimum of 10 volts at the unit at all times for correct operation.

So, if one has a partially discharged battery, a battery with a weak or weak cells, or a corroded or loose connection anywhere in the power distribution system of power to the depth finder, it is easy to understand how the voltage to the depth finder could fall below 10 volts and cause an issue with the depth finder when starting the engine.

Do what is necessary in your rig to always insure that you have 10 volts at the inside of the depth finder and you should be free of problems.

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Some boat owners have found that it is necessary to use a separate battery that is not part of the engine starting system to completely solve their particular issues with units shutting down when starting the engine.

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Remember when checking your rig for a problem, you essentially need to verify every inch of power wiring from the battery terminals itself to the internal depth finder connections. A poor connection, a bad solder joint, a bad crimp, a defective fuse holder, a defective circuit breaker, corrosion in the wire itself -- could all be part of the power feed situation.

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There is one thing that would be pretty easy to try and would give you a clear cut answer to your power distribution questions. If you are getting consistent graph issues when you start your main motor - you could try installing a brand new power cable directly from the input power connector to the starting battery terminals. Have no breaks in the wire anywhere including no fuses or anything else, just to test for problems.

If you find that you still have graph problems with a hard wire brand new connection from the graph to the battery, you have an issue with your battery voltage falling too low to support the operation of your graph. Hence, you need to replace, enlarge, or add an additional battery to insure that you can maintain the necessary 10 volts at the graph to maintain correct graph operation during motor starting on your rig.

Best wishes

p.s.
One thing that you may not have checked on your rig.
Have you checked the battery wire power connections as they connect to your motor.

I suggest that you remove the cowl on your engine, and go over each and every main battery power connection on your motor. i.e. loosen up each terminal slightly rotate the cable back and forth a few times to insure that it is 100% free of corrosion.

Then, make each of the battery to motor connections tight again.

A slightly corroded or loose main battery connection at your motor can cause a voltage drop due to resistance.

The resistance increase the current draw from the battery during motor starting times and thus drop the battery voltage.

This causes the graph to power down.

Insure that all of your main battery to motor connections at both the battery terminals as well as the motor /starter terminals.

This poor connection resolution may have resolved your issue with graph power down during motor starting.

[DW]

“...Do what is necessary in your rig to always insure that you have 10 volts at the inside of the depth finder and you should be free of problems...”

Easier said than done.

First of all, when you buy a sonar, you have to dive pretty deep into the specs to know the minimum voltage requirements, an analysis most buyers do after the sale when they have the manual in hand.

In my case I bought a load tester which showed my voltage was above the minimum. In my rant a year ago I was abused because my tester was only a 100 amp draw, and advised that I needed a bigger draw load tester. Where in the manual you get after the sale does it specify how big a draw by the load tester is needed to validate battery performance? Answer: No where.

Don’t even think that you can read a multitester voltage read out during cranking as it swings momentarily wildly during cranking.

A sonar is a consumer product that can be expected to be used in certain environments and a manufacturer has a duty to design its products accordingly. The added cost of a 25 cent internal capacitor saves the consumer the cost of a $200-300 new battery. It’s as simple as that.

[Pokey Fisherman]

Another thing besides voltage drop at start that could be happening is noise in the power line when the big motors starts getting through the locators power supply. Another thing to check is if your starter on the big motor is drawing too much from a bad starter. But first like others of stated, check connections first, its the cheapest fix.

Then if all else fails and no issues are found you can install a second battery to run the electronics with a switch between the two that you open during starting or a diode between the two batteries so the big motor can't draw from it but still will charge it. The battery does not have to be that big, a lawn mower battery will work, If you used a switch and forget to open it and crank the big motor the wires and switch would have to be big enough to handle the load.